A short history of Vanderbilt Basketball in the modern (64+ team tournament) era
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 6, 2012 11:48 AM EST
in Vanderbilt Commodores Basketball
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PrintEarly tournament exits in the last three appearances combined with uneven performances during this much anticipated season have led some to question CKS' job security. Others defend his record. Looking through the narrow lens of the last five seasons (and CKS' overall tenure), this defense is perplexing to those who see greener grass with a regime change. How could a man who's overall personality can been described as "dry" have such loyal defenders?
Perhaps a long look back will help inform us about how we got here and why CKS has managed to stick around for so long despite a rather unimpressive overall record. [Disclaimer: my first experience of VU basketball was watching the 1987 VU team play in my H.S. gym prior to the Maui Classic (which at that time was in Wailuku and not Lahaina) and my first live game was VU vs. UGA at Memorial on a December night in 1990 (anybody remember that one?) - this limits my pre-1990 descriptions, though they are important to the overall discussion.]
[I would be remiss if I neglected to credit both Bill Wade (not the former VU QB) and Brian Ward (yes, that Brian Ward) with fact-checking this post. Without their assistance, this would have been kind of a mess to read, and contained many more spelling and grammatical errors.]
The glory days of VU hoops were the 1960's, when Roy Skinner roamed the baseline. Skinner had some great teams but coached in an era when only 16 teams made the tournament, and that team was typically UK from the SEC. The 1965 team with All American Clyde Lee was probably his best team (or at least most accomplished), winning the SEC and making the NCAA quarterfinals before losing a nail biter to Michigan and falling just short of the Final Four. The 1974 team with VBK and the "F troop" won the SEC before losing to Marquette and Notre Dame in the NCAA's. Skinner retired after the 1975 season, having won 4 SEC COTY awards and compiling a 278-135 record.
Following Skinner, VU had two coaches, Wayne Dobbs and Richard Schmidt, who combined for very little success over 5 seasons. Schmidt left after a 14-15 season (7-11 SEC). There are still strong opinions about Schmidt, but I leave it to the old-timers to comment.
CM Newton took over in 1982. Although many remember the magical 1988 season that culminated with an OT tourney win over a highly ranked Pittsburgh, it took coach Newton 6 seasons to get to that point. It was not a smooth ride, as those six seasons included 3 losing seasons and 5 losing SEC records. But because Newton had previously turned around a moribund Alabama Program, fans were patient with him, and it paid off. Following the Sweet 16 season, the 1989 team led by Barry Booker, Barry Goheen and Frank Kornet was a tennis ball away from winning the SEC, but it was not to be and that team lost in the first round to Notre Dame. Newton took his two consecutive SEC COTY awards (note that going 10-8 in 1988 at VU was worthy of a SEC COTY award) and left to become AD of UK.
I'd like to add a few points about the 1960's-early 1990's era of SEC college basketball. This era was: 1) prior to the 1992 addition of USC and Arkansas (who was very good at the time) to the conference, 2) UK and VU were arguably the only programs that consistently cared about basketball, and 3) VU's traditional rivals were down during the last years of the era: UK went on probation, ineligible for the NCAA's for both 1990 and 1991, and with reduced scholarships during those seasons; their only legit NBA prospect during that time was Jamal Mashburn, who was a freshman in 1991. UT was horrible, having hired the inept Wade Houston mainly to get his son Allan to play for them. Florida was good, but nowhere near where they are now. LSU had tons of talent, but Dale Brown defined poor coaching (they had Chris Jackson, Shaq and Stanley Roberts on the same team and didn't make it out of the first weekend). This was definitely not the golden era of SEC basketball.
This ushered in the relatively brief tenure of Eddie Fogler. Fogler had seen success during a three year stint at Wichita State that pegged him as an up-and-comer in the coaching business. At VU, Fogler had decent success during his first season, getting hot at the right time to turn a .500 team into NIT champions, following a 7-11 SEC record. In 1991, I remember watching the season opener at Arkansas (then near their heyday with Todd Day and Lee Mayberry) and seeing VU destroyed by a far more athletic team. Our great wins that season were against an Shaq-led LSU team and a win over UK that may still be the reason UK fans complain so bitterly about Memorial (I'm pretty sure we shot at least 40 FTs). We were great at home but struggled away from Memorial. The team also faded down the stretch losing 2 of its last three SEC games, a home SEC tourney game (played in Memorial), and barely making the NCAA tourney as a 9 seed before bowing out to Mourning and Mutombo's Georgetown team. After his second season, Fogler's two best freshmen (both eventually played in the NBA) left the program for other schools. Unsurprisingly, Fogler's third season was disappointing, with a 6-10 SEC record and a first round home NIT loss to Rhode Island. The highlight of the seasons was another win against Shaq's LSU.
But the 1993 season was the absolute height of the program during the modern era. Following the disappointing season in 1992, Fogler returned most of his players and added critical talent - Chris Lawson, a big transfer from Indiana, freshmen Frank Seckar, and most importantly, Billy McCaffrey, named to the an all-Final Four team while a sophomore at Duke. Perhaps the most important coaching decision by Fogler that season was to start 6'-4" Kevin Anglin at SF and 6'-5" Bruce Elder at PF. Anglin had started the season prior at PG and Elder (a Davidson transfer) was the starting SF. With Lawson, a very large but athletically limited center and Ronnie McMahan at SG, VU essentially started three guards and had four good ball-handlers and passers in the lineup. That team went on a tear, beating everybody at home and winning the games they should have on the road (with a couple of exceptions). McCaffrey was brilliant, shooting over 50% from three for the season and 87% from the line while leading the team in assists. The team won the SEC by splitting with UK, and getting a bit of a gift from UT, which handed UK a 3rd conference loss despite winning just four games in conference that season. Although the team lost to LSU in the SEC tourney, they reached the sweet 16 as a #3 seed before succumbing to the #7 seed Temple.
A few comments on the SEC in 1992-93: it was not particularly strong that season, but was top heavy, with three very good teams in Arkansas, UK and VU, and several very bad teams (UT, Ole Miss, USC and MSU) that finished with losing overall records. VU had the fortune of playing almost all of the most difficult games at Memorial (which was much louder in the 90's before the bare cinder block walls and open rafters were dampened with drapes. Our best wins by far that season were UK, Arkansas and Louisville, all at home. Against NCAA tournament teams on the road that season, we were not very good, losing to Illinois, Temple, LSU, UK, and Memphis, while beating LSU during the regular season and Boise St. and Illinois in the NCAA's. The team again struggled down the stretch, needing OT at home against a very weak UT team, barely beating a terrible USC squad on the road, losing by 10 to LSU in the SEC tourney prior to overmatching Boise St. team and handling a 19 win Illinois team before losing to Temple, a team which had finished 8-6 in the A-10. Don't get me wrong, it was a historic season because VU beat some very good to excellent teams at home and won the SEC, but we played in a weak league, and given that we had a very nice path to the elite 8 with Arizona getting upset in the 1st round of the tournament, it was a disappointing ending. But in retrospect we were at best a slightly-above-average team away from Memorial, really only beating two good teams on road/neutral courts.
Fogler left after the 1993 season due to a contract dispute, and VU hired Jan Van Breda Kolff who had done a decent job at Cornell but had been there for only two seasons. No doubt Kirkland Hall was hoping that VBK had inherited a coaching pedigree from his father and his ABA career, but they also entertained the thought that as an alum, VBK would prove loyal to the school. VBK inherited a deep and talented squad, with McCaffrey, Lawson, McMahan, Seckar, Woods, Evans and Hall; consequently 1993-1994 was the last time Vandy was ranked in the preseason prior to this season. But the team played a tougher schedule, went 1-6 against ranked teams, with the only victory occurring at home vs. #16 UF. VU ended up missing the NCAA's and had a run to the NIT finals before succumbing to a Kerry Kittles led Villanova team. With Ronnie McMahan, Seckar, Woods, Evans and a young Drew Maddux in 1995, VU finished with a losing overall record, missing the postseason altogether. The following season a 7-9 SEC record took VU to the NIT, where we lost to USC in the second round. The 1997 season was supposed to be the one for VBK, as he had many of his recruits in the program. The team barely made the NCAA tournament as a 10 seed before losing in the first round to Xavier by 12. The following season (1997-98) saw another NIT berth following a 7-9 SEC season as a farewell to VBK's first four year seniors. By that time VBK's recruiting had dried up pretty well, and the writing became visible on the wall. VBK played out the string to a losing record in 1998-99, his 5th consecutive 2nd division finish to close out his tenure.
It was a down time for VU basketball despite the decent overall records. VBK inherited a program that was close to an all time high, having made 4 tournaments in the previous 6 seasons, had a returning All-American plus another player who was the #2 all-time scorer at the school when he graduated. With this solid base of talent, VBK led the program backwards nearly every season. Avoiding the Ron Mercer fiasco would have only delayed the inevitable.
The leading candidate in the aftermath of the VBK era was Mike Brey, who had done some nice things at Delaware. But Brey turned us down, opting to wait a season until the Notre Dame job opened when coach Doherty was inexplicably promoted to the UNC job. The next candidate in line was widely believed to be Bob Bender, who had compiled an 85-84 record at Washington in six seasons, with a single tournament appearance (sweet 16). Another rumored candidate was Rice's Willis Wilson, though he was "irked" that he never received an offer (which was understandable, given his 98-98 record with zero NCAA appearances). Things didn't look promising, to say the least.
Nevertheless, when CKS was hired from Illinois State, it surprised many people who assumed that he wasn't interested in a non-Purdue job, having turned down several previous offers, including UT's. CKS was coming off of an impressive 123-63 record at ISU (ironically taking over from Bender, who went 60-57 there), where he had taken the Redbirds to four consecutive post season tourneys, including back-to-back MVC championships and NCAA tourney invitations in 1997 and 1998, the second of which featured an upset win over UT. In a bit of luck, CKS expressed interest in the job before he was on our radar, and we were able to land him.
For the 1999-2000 season, VU had some upperclassmen talent, but a hollowed-out sophomore class that included only Sam Howard and project Darius Coulibaly, and only one Stallings recruit due to the lateness of his hiring. Little was expected of the team given the back troubles of C Greg LaPointe, and overall lack of inside talent or depth (the starting C and PF were listed at 6'-10" and 6'-7", with a combined vertical leap of perhaps 20"). CKS probably did as well with that team as anyone could have, given these limitations. VU went 19-11, knocking off four ranked teams, including a UF team that went to the National Championship game as well as a sweep of UT. The three seniors in Langhi, Strong and Prater all had career seasons under CKS, and the team was clearly screwed out of a NCAA berth given its final resume.
The following season, 2000-01, saw VU lose the three key players from the previous season (Langhi won SEC POTY) and the departure of two freshmen for different reasons. That left four players from the VBK era by CKS' second season - a gimpy Greg LaPointe, Anthony Williams, Sam Howard and Darius Coulibaly. Of the 9 man rotation that season, four were freshmen and the entire PG minutes were split between Billy Richmond and Russell Lakey. VU faced 8 ranked teams that season and got beat a lot, but managed to win at #8 Florida and beat #17 Bama.
The 2001-02 squad consisted almost entirely made up of CKS recruits, with the exception of Howard and Coulibaly. There was minor progress made as VU beat three more ranked teams including the first win over UK since the 1993 season. The 9 ranked teams VU beat exceeded the number of ranked teams beaten by VBK in 6 seasons, and it was accomplished with far less talent than VBK inherited.
But 2002-03 was a disaster, with team chemistry issues that started with Brendan Plavich transferring for more PT. Brian Thornton, who had had a fantastic freshman season decided that he didn't want to play for CKS, and the team collapsed psychologically, with CKS completely unable to right the ship. The bottom was hit during a 62 point loss to UK, where the team simply gave up. CKS' job was definitely in jeopardy, but AD Todd Turner gave him one more season to attempt to turn it around with his first class of seniors.
2004 was the turning point of the program under Stallings, as Seniors Freije, Lakey, Hundley, and Schnedlitz willed the team to its first tournament since 1997, and then beat a very good NC State team with a miracle finish, coming back from double digits in the final three minutes by scoring on 7 consecutive possessions to finish the game (season record: 23-10 overall, 8-8 SEC). The 2004-05 just missed a repeat trip to the NCAA's (Season record 20-14, 8-8 SEC) and made way for the next great freshman class. And while 2005-06 was a disappointment (Season record 17-13 overall, 7-9 SEC; first round NIT loss), 2006-07 saw the first of four tournament appearances in 5 seasons, with one sweet 16
I cut CKS a bit of slack for his 2nd and 3rd season "slumps" because he inherited two consecutive classes that had a grand total of 1 SEC caliber player. The class of 2002 had Sam Howard and the "class of 2003" - due to the late recruiting start - was Rick Jones, a small SG who promptly got himself booted out of school. From this complete nadir, CKS has built a program that pretty much expects to make the tournament every season, with a jaded fan base that gets mad when the team loses to top 10 teams on the road. This is not to say that he is without faults - but there has to be some perspective here.
It took 7 seasons for CM Newton to build the program up to a level that was a bit below where it is now. Eddie Fogler had a magical season and bolted, and VBK slowly drained the program of the life it had to the point of irrelevancy. It took CKS 7 seasons to build it up to the point where it currently sits, so it seems pretty clear that this is no easy task.
I realize that this was a long post, but it makes me cringe when I see posters lumping seasons together and omitting crucial details, in order to force comparisons between coaches, their eras and histories. No doubt I've left out information and have inaccuracies here and there, but nothing truly crucial I hope (and in any case this is the best I can do in a night's worth of typing and internet searching).
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completely agree
that CKS deserves a lot of credit for building the program into a consistant top 25 team, especially when compared to the relative failings of those before him. But while its been a great ride, looking at the future I still think a change is sadly, but justifiably coming. This will sound strange since the current team obviously has 3 players going to the NBA next year, but CKS’s recent recruiting failures are what will eventually doom him. Bottom line is his last 2 classes have not provided the depth necessary to support his stars, and to me thats why this years team isn’t meeting the lofty preseason expectations. Part of those expectations were based on the assumption that Vandy has some depth and the highly touted incoming freshman would make an serious impact this year. That assumption has simply turned out to be incorrect.
Consider this: Despite being 5-3 in the SEC, VU’s bench plays 7 less minutes, scores 7 less points per game, and grabs 1.5 less rebs than their opponents’ bench. In their SEC losses the disparity balloons to 17 mins, 12pts, and less 4rebs a game. But what’s even more telling is in VU’s SEC wins (including blowouts of Auburn and UT) the bench still averaged 1 less minute, 4 less pts per game, and broke even on rebounds. To me this means that Vandy’s bench is a serious liability. They are grossly outperformed by good teams with deep benches (UF, Ark, MissSt) and can barely hang with bad teams that the starters are basically dominating. This would seem to play a significant part in the string of blown leads and late collapses. The bench can’t hold their own when the starters need a rest, and the starters end up playing longer and aren’t as fresh down the stretch.
Obviously the bench isn’t the only reason for this team’s struggles, but you can’t deny its a real liability. Bottom line is its CKS’s job to consistantly recruit the right players, and that just hasn’t happened for the last 2 years. Unfortunately this has negatively affected what was supposed to be a legendary season, and sets next year up to be a struggle to say the least. So again, CKS deserves serious respect for what he’s done in Nashville, but his recent recruiting slump is enough to send him on his way out the door.
I think this argument is about more than CKS
I don’t think this argument comes down to pro-CKS vs. anti-CKS. Personally, I think Stallings has done a great job building a solid, but not spectacular, program at Vanderbilt. I also think the program is due to regress severely next season (novel thought, huh?). Worse yet, I see little reason to think that the following year will be any better. But I don’t support firing Stallings – even if we go one-and-done again this season (and yes, I still assume this team will make the NCAA Tournament).
Why? Because I don’t see Vanderbilt luring a better coach after forcing out a coach like Stallings. As naive as it is to think that loyalty between coaches and a schools exists these days, I happen to think Vanderbilt’s athletics model is positioned in a way that promotes loyalty in both directions. ADs have to fire coaches because their ass is on the line. David Williams’s ass is not on the line. He can hire and fire coaches with little worry that his boss is going to fire him because he makes the wrong decision. Williams’s motivation is making the best decision for the longterm health of Vanderbilt athletics.
Perhaps I’m naive, but I really believe this has been a factor in Vanderbilt’s ability to hold onto guys like Corbin and Franklin. If you’re Corbin, why pick Vanderbilt over LSU or Phil Knight U? Well, for starters, Vanderbilt is a lot less likely to fire you if your program hits a slump for a few years. Vanderbilt gives you time to build your program and your legacy the right way. I get the impression that Franklin sees this too, but time could prove me wrong on that one. I just believe Franklin could have easily jumped ship for a bigger program after this past season.
Hence my worries about firing Stallings have more to do with Vanderbilt athletics as a whole over the longterm than the basketball program next season or the season after. I just don’t see firing a coach who will have taken his teams to as many NCAA Tournaments as the school went to over the previous three decades as a smart decision – especially after the school’s first time ever making three consecutive trips. It not only makes it harder for us to hire a great coach to replace him, it makes it harder for us to convince all of our other coaches that loyalty is a two-way street.
While I want the basketball program to strive for higher goals than the Sweet 16, I think the best way to achieve those goals is by promoting loyalty to successful coaches – even they have underachieved at times. Further, while some point to the bare cupboard as a reason for firing Stallings, I think it actually pushes me in the other direction. Given the talent we have returning, I don’t see how another coach does anything other than struggle mightily next season – unless we hire a World Wide Wes disciple (no thanks).
Finally, it would not surprise me to see Stallings step down sometime in the next few seasons. He has long said that he does not want to coach into old age. I think it will be a lot easier for Vanderbilt to lure a great head coach to replace a retiring Stallings than to replace a fired Stallings. If that means a year or two of struggles, I can live with that if it means greater longterm success for the basketball program.
by Vandy Dan on Feb 6, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Interesting to note
As a nonprofit corporation claiming tax exempt status, Vanderbilt University must report certain high salaries. Take a look at Kevin Stallings 2008 salary – spoiler alert, it was higher then than Calhoun and Boeheim in 2011…
http://chronicle.com/article/Vanderbilt-Sets-a-Precedent/66218/
http://www.forbes.com/2011/03/03/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-business-sports.html
Interesting to note
Kevin Stallings paid $100,000 out of his own pocket for his team to go to Australia. He runs a clean program that has never had even a whiff of scandal.
Neither...
your post nor my reply have anything to do with my original post, so I assumed we were sharing fun facts about Kevin Stallings.
Great point.
Very true on the loyalty angle and why we’ve been able to hold onto CTC and hopefully CJF as well as CKS. You can probably look to the Women’s program as well. CMB has a solid, but unspectacular program. We pretty much will make the tournament, but are definitely below the level established by the previous coach (whose name escapes me at the moment). If we were to get rid of CKS, and did make the homerun hire, who is to say that we aren’t rolling the dice four years from then because the coach makes a move to another team.
It is funny that CKS did attempt to get the OSU job, given that he was about to get fired, but since Williams has been entrenched for a while he turned down several midwest openings that he might have looked at as a younger coach. It is also true that should CKS decide to call it a career, it will be much easier to find his replacement than if we showed him the door.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 6, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Outstanding
Takeaways:
1) Mane, VandyImport hate Wolverine purp. Michigan cost us a Final Four, the opening game at Dudley Field, and knocked the #1-ranked 2007 baseball team out of the postseason. DAMN YOU ANN ARBOR
2) I had almost completely suppressed that 62-point loss to UK. That’s when something snapped in my head and I decided loudly “You can be forgiven for losing. You will NEVER be forgiven for quitting.” Which came back to me in a big way in 2008 against Siena…
3) It definitely looks like it takes a good 6 years to regenerate the basketball team. That kind of turnaround time definitely weighs in favor of NOT making a change, unless there’s some sort of instant miracle-worker out there. I think the increased pressure on CKS is a result of a) the string of first-round exits in ignominious fashion, b) the dread of what next year will look like with the big “reverse python” empty hole in our roster after years of only turning over one or two players, and c) the knowledge that the SEC is adding a Missouri team that is no freakin’ joke and a Texas A&M squad that is not godawful, increasing the chances that we might slip even further behind the Axis of Shady in the SEC pecking order….
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
How can you take point #3 from this post or the discussion?
This is a look at one school. There’s not enough data to infer anything about how long it takes to regenerate a basketball program.
That said, I think it would be fascinating if someone with more energy than me would compile a list of unquestionably excellent coaches and look at all their coaching stops (probably subtracting those where they moved to a new program for big money when they were clearly past their primes) and see how long it does take for a good coach to make real progress.
It would be a pretty ambitious undertaking, but it could help solve the “fire Stallings?” question.
My assumption — and I’d bet it’s an assumption shared by most folks who think we should roll the dice and fire Stallings in the quest for a coach who can bring this program up a level or two — is that great coaches show their greatness very fast, which would make it possible to quickly identify whether you’ve gotten a great coach and, if not, try again.
If it turns out that you can reliably tell in two years, then I say fire Stallings because even if it took us four tries to get a great coach, I think it would be worth it. I could take six very bad years if it ended with us landing a coach who built a program that spend most of the time ranked 10-15 nationally, won the SEC every three years, and typically made it to the second weekend of the NCAAs in a typical year.
If, however, it turns out that it takes five years to really evaluate a coach properly, then I’d probably stick with Stallings because three bad choices would mean a 15 year down period.
Well, I suppose it would be even more important to find a pretty surefire way to ID a great coach from his last job, so you could be pretty sure that you wouldn’t make three bad hires before finding the great coach.
by Andrew D. Smith on Feb 7, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Based on CM Newton and Kevin Stallings requiring about that long to break through starting from a big bag of nothing.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Very good post, Jason
I am one of the relative “old timers” around here. I started following Vandy basketball around 1980. I recall Richard Schmidt and when CM Newton came in. I remember calling CM at his weekly radio show and getting the inside scoop on hot recruits Phil Cox and Jeff Gary. They were not publicly known yet and I appreciated CM telling me about them.
Also, my family has had the same two tickets since the first balcony opened in 1965. Yes, my family has the same 2 tickets for 46 seasons. I wonder if there is anyone else who can make the claim. I emailed the SID about it last year, but they did not know.
Anyway, I am aware of the longer term history of this team. And the challenges that other coaches have faces to build this group. I have felt like you do for a long time. So many folks don’t realize that this is perhaps the best things have been in a couple of generations. And doing it with a clean program, something not to be underestimated. Yes, we’ve lost some 1st round games in the NCAAs, but it sure beats losing seasons. Of course, that merits a continuation of the current administration, right?
But my thinking has changed recently. Rightly or wrongly. I have been troubled by several things done by CKS. I was really really dissapointed when I heard him say that players were letting the team down. That they did not show up. He put all the public blame on them and none for himself. To me, that was a cardinal sin. You praise in public and critisize in private. Period. That’s just the way it is done.
Layer in the relative underperformance by this team (so far); the outlook for next year and beyond; the lack of NBA prospects during his tenure (not that Vandy has ever had a lot), the current class notwithstanding; the way he seems to berate his team and belittle them; among other issues. I’ve moved towards thinking its time to roll the dice for a change.
I am well aware of the likelihood of going backwards. I’ve seen this history first hand. But I also think there is a real chance we could upgrade. No idea who. I don’t follow college b-ball closely enough to gauge what smaller college coaches would consider us. Just theoretically.
Another Oldtimer
I have been watching VU since 83. I am also troubled by the public criticism of this team. This team appears “soft” and I agree that this season has been a disappointment. There is no “wait until next year.” This is next year. I don’t see us remaining a top half of the conference team with what we have coming back and having committed. I won’t be heart broken if CKS leaves or shown the door, but I will continue to support them if he is back. That decision is above my pay grade right now. You only get rid of him if you can get better. There are few coaches that spring to mind to improve the program.
by Smoke n Mirrors on Feb 6, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
That's the thing that really sticks out
There’s nobody obviously better, and even if there were, next year’s going to be such a thin cupboard that I don’t know whether Bobby Knight and Dean Smith combined could make a tournament team. In fact, I’m starting to wonder whether next year might be a complete shift in offensive approach – maybe a press-and-run team, or a slowdown offense, anything to try to narrow the gap.
But yeah, the future is now. I’m all in, because tomorrow’s not coming for this squad.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
I can agree with the sentiment that we're not going to get anything better.
Stallings has been a good, but not great coach here. I think he understands the stakes of this season and I have seen this team adjust well to its correctable mistakes under him (poor rotations, bad timeouts, playing kids out of position). Unfortunately, the things that have been biting us lately are less easily remedied. Poor distribution and lack of athleticism in the backcourt are the issues that have plagued this team the past two seasons. Vandy has recovered well enough to mask these problems, but a good team like Florida can bring them to light very easily.
However, the fatal flaw that really seems to be coming down on Stallings is a mental one. This team’s inability to win big games in recent years has defined them. There are several factors in play, but a big part of this falls on Stallings. Couple the frustration of coming up short with next year’s bare cupboard, and you’re brewing the perfect storm for his exit.
Vandy needs to break through that mental block (and come up with better last-minute plays) to get things back on track. I’m convinced that much of the problem here is tied to confidence – even the seniors on this team have no link to Vanderbilt’s defining performances of the last decade. One big last-second or overtime win could be the turning point.
The most frustrating thing about Stallings right now is that he was able to wring so much more out of lesser players. For years we had the heart but not the talent. This year we’ve got talent in spades but seemingly not the heart. We haven’t won an overtime game in two years, dammit. Those issues fall mainly on the “mental” side of things. That relates strongly back to the coaching, and that’s why I can understand the anger towards Stalling that has been building in the past three seasons.
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 6, 2012 1:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The OT thing.
Two years without a win in OT is troubling. I’m not sure what that can be attributed to besides coaching. But, if I had to guess, it would be our lack of a player who can create his own shot/take over the game/assert his will when the situation calls for it. That has been the one thing I’ve noticed in our OT losses – the other team has this kind of player, the offense is run to get him the ball, and he either scores or draws fouls trying to score.
We all know that JT and JJ have shown this ability, and at times the will to use it, but we have also been mystified at games ending with Brad having the final possession. Which leaves us with coaching – it is his job to know the team strengths and weaknesses and put them in the best position to win those games. I don’t know, maybe he does and the guys just “let the team down,” as he says.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 7, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
We miss King Rice too
Anyone who actually attended games will undoubtedly be able to recall the image of King Rice running onto the court at every timeout clapping his hands, smiling and offering encouragement – regardless of whether it was a great 4 minute stretch or a MSU start of the second half stretch. Now, they still had the epic collapse issues with King on the bench (both UT games last year, USC on the road last year, and the awful NCAA games), but the recruits sitting in the stands and coming to practice had to see that as a bright spot and a comfort…
Can we do the next history lesson on Missouri and why that program was able to get better after a really successful coach was fired, and appears to continue to rise even after they lost the following coach to an SEC rival (I believe this is especially relevant since we lost to them in OT last year at Mizzou due to our patented failure in last possessions).
The long-term history is relevant, but not the end-all be-all. Look at Butler. They have no history to speak of, but they have advanced past the first round of the tournament six times since Stallings arrived at VU. They have had 4 coaches in that time frame – each leaving the program in a better position than they found it. Collier left for Nebraska and busted. Thad Matta made an upgrade that worked. Todd Lickliter left for Iowa and busted. Brad Stevens, well, can we assign the gross receipts of the Medical Center to him to get him to come coach here (not doing well this year, but I bet if he were on our bench he would be)? All this to say that if Butler can kill it with 3 straight hires, it can be done elsewhere. Also to say that once a school gets hot, the following coach can ride the recruiting wave if the program is not run into the ground. There are a lot of reasons to think that Vandy is a “hot” school right now with the energy around the football program (although I am not suggesting that a 6-7 season warrants a parade) and the baseball program. We are getting national attention that we have not really ever seen, and we need to take advantage of that and upgrade the sport we really care about – basketball.
Stevens was the first guy I thought of for a coaching hire
but
1. he could do better than Vanderbilt
2. Butler’s got him set for life, and somehow he seems to enjoy living in Indianapolis.
Man, that’d be a great hire, though.
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 6, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
The other thing too...
A mid-major team can get hot for a couple of years and build a LOT of momentum. Gonzaga and then St Mary’s in the WCC spring to mind, now Butler’s done it – build a dominant team in your small pond and be ready to make a hard run at the big boys in March. In a league with Kentucky, Florida, Arkansas, Mississippi State, and God knows there are other programs that could turn around and get hot – I don’t know that a coach that killed it when he only has to sweat four or five games a year (and only a couple in conference) would have the same success – although with the presumably elevated talent level available to an SEC program, who knows.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
And...
The talent level at Vanderbilt will always be less elevated than the other programs in the league, due to our admission standards.
Academic standard is not a good argument
This is not Chancellor Wyatt’s Vanderbilt. There was a football player in the early 2000’s that I know had a 1.8 in high school and did not crush the SAT… I also know of some baseball players that were not above the 2.5 HS GPA level as well. Believe me, if you were in class over at Peabody in the last 15 year, you would be laughing at your last comment. If they are good enough to play here and are willing to try hard in the classroom they will admit them. And, what does “it was said that Coach K steered Brey away” mean? Personal knowledge or just good excuse to downplay our ability to get a Duke assistant?
It's all relative.
The simple fact is, that no matter what our standards have done, they still are above what they are at the other schools in the conference. That is an absolute fact.
An excuse? Give me freakin break. I’m not the one who is deluded enough to suggest Brad Stevens as a possible replacement for CKS.
Read as sarcasm
Do you think I really want to assign our gross receipts of our med center for a coach?
Kevin – Step back from the computer, take a few deep breaths, and go coach practice so we don’t blow our chance of making the tournament by losing to LSU at home on Wednesday. No one is going to fire you, so it really doesn’t matter what all of these fans on a SB blog say about you.
Who is Kevin?
I’m not the one who has an anonymous internet handle. Nor am I the one who brings up silly arguements, such as salary (I notice the article only listed salaries and not other benefits, which tend to be much greater at a school like Syracuse or UConn).
Fair Point
About the anonymous handle – you must consider the source of the info you read and with anonymous posts, there is no source. Nevertheless, this blog is a place for people to voice opinions and vent to others who are similarly situated. I may be acting as an instigator on this subject in this fantasy blogoshere, but it is obvious through the number of posts that a lot of people feel strongly about this issue (also a number of people joined to post their feelings about this). I respect that you are loyal to Stallings for what he has done and that you believe that he will be able to do it again. I think it is unfair to claim that his era is objectively better than the early nineties (and suggest that many of the factors that lead to our success then were also present in Stallings good run – down UK and transfers landing in our lap – Byars – Neltner). It is not like anyone on here is making decisions or is actually causing real heat on Stallings (I haven’t heard one word about it on the radio or seen a drop of ink on it in the paper, even though it is clear from occasional boos in the stands and the uproar on here that there are in fact SOME people that are concerned). Maybe if there were a true public debate on large media outlets, the typical Vandy fan who is frustrated would jump in. Many fans have felt alienated over the years because the administration seemed to not care about athletics. The fans gave up asking for more and turned into the group sitting in the padded backs and only show up for SEC games, and more or less boycotted football (and still hasn’t filled the stands or bought season tickets in fb, but are getting closer). These are the fans that have been hurt so bad over the years that they would rather casually observe than invest themselves or THEIR MONEY! The new football coach is helping the NCC separate them from their $, and has successfully had people travel to a bowl. I think an energetic coach, willing to embrace the fans and the young team next year could be a great way to BUILD on what Stallings has done. We all want the program to do well, the question is whether it is doing well (on the court, in the stands, in the NCC and perception-wise in the community and nationally). Once again, I hope we win it all and CKS rides off in glory and I will be the first to applaud what he has done here. I just hope we don’t have to argue again on Wednesday. Go Dores!
In the press
Last fall Jeff Lockridge brought up the question with David Williams at the end of a long interview that mostly focused on football and the shifting conference membership:
Question: Would you have any concerns regarding Kevin Stallings’ job if the men’s basketball team suffers another one-and-done in the NCAA Tournament?
DW: No. Kevin Stallings is our basketball coach. He will be our basketball coach. He’s a good coach … a great coach .. and a great teacher. I think he’s done a good job. Here is one thing about going out in the tournament in the first round: you have to get to it to do that. I know a lot of teams don’t get to the tournament. Now having said that, Kevin is as competitive as anybody. He wants to go the whole way and that’s what we ask.
I’m always saying our coaches, the thing I love about them, is Kevin will come in and ask for only things to help him win championships. He never comes in there and says, ‘I want, I want … .’ It’s only, ‘I need this to be better to win championships.’ Kevin will do a fine job. But you can let everybody know that Kevin Stallings is the basketball coach today, and tomorrow, at Vanderbilt.
I remember that exchange.
It sort of tells you the goal that the Administration has in mind for basketball – making the tournament with regularity. And if so, then, yeah, Stallings is doing a hell of a job.
It is safe to say that fanbase, justifiably or not, has increased expectations in the past couple of years.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 7, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
I certainly have increased expectations, especially with this team and seeing them progress over the past 3-4 years. It’s even harder when I look at them individually and see the progress they have made, even in the last year, while as a group they still struggle.
No matter the outcome on Saturday, I really hope there’s no chanting from the student section to fire Stallings. It’s one thing for us to discuss, or for it to be discussed in professional interview. However, for the students to chant about having the coach fired is classless.
What "success" means to VCDW
Some insight from his interview yesterday:
http://blogs.tennessean.com/vanderbilt/2012/02/06/q-and-a-with-vanderbilts-david-williams/
Now whether we change to go back to something entirely different … I don’t want to sound snobbish or anything … but I would say I think we’ve had a fair amount of success under our model. And I don’t mean just success in the sense that our baseball team went to the College World Series for the first time; we won our first national championship under this model (women’s bowling); we’ve been to two bowl games out of five (in program history) under this model; our women’s basketball team has been to the NCAA Tournament every year under this model; the men went to the Sweet 16 under this model. But more importantly, our student-athletes have a GPA of over 3.0 under this model. One of the things I’m most proud of, we went from zero student-athletes studying abroad to, for the first time, we’re going to have more student-athletes applying to go abroad this summer than I have money to pay for. And that includes every sport. We had a hard time cracking in football, and now I have four football players. Some of the things we set out to do … we won the SEC (women’s) cross country championship going from last to first in a mere four-and-a-half years under this model; we’ve balanced the books every year under this model; we’re getting ready to put in two Jumbotrons; we’re getting ready to turf the field; we improved the baseball stadium; and we’re building an indoor facility, all under this model. Why change?
What about any Duke assistant?
You gotta throw darts at them and hope you hit a bullseye… They are used to recruiting the players we want. They have an excuse to get those type of players. We could be universally hated – nothing could be better than that. Start saying it with me… Wojo, Wojo, Wojo…….. I mean seriously – Tommy Amaker, Jeff Capel, Johnny Dawkins, Quin Snyder (he needs another chance), Mike Brey (hey maybe if Stallings and he switched schools, one of us would get past the first round!), Chris Collins, Nate James…
There is a huge problem with that strategy
You gotta throw darts at them and hope you hit a bullseye
When you change coaches, you have only one dart to throw, and then hope it works, or you get set back four more seasons.
Second, it was said that Coach K specifically steered Mike Brey away from the VU job when it was offered him. That says a lot about what he thinks of the job.
In fairness, the athletics at this school were a bit of a tire fire at the time
But he’s got a good thing going at ND now, I doubt he’d pack it in. They just dropped $10M remodeling the arena.
Dawkins is at Stanford and I can tell you he hasn’t exactly lit the world on fire. People in the Bay Area are still getting used to seeing Mike Montgomery in blue and gold, which would be exactly the equivalent of us going out and hiring Bruce Pearl…
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
The story on Coach K that I've heard...
is that when Coach K was at Army and we were looking for a new coach, someone in power here asked Bobby Knight’s opinion and he suggested Coach K. For whatever reason, we did not go that direction.
So I can understand if Coach K has a bit of animosity towards us. As the story goes, we passed him over before he went to Duke. The rest, as they say, is history on that front.
Don't Know if He Should Go...
But, I do not think it is unreasonable to be disappointed and frustrated right now with this season and CKS. It’s not just losing to top 10 teams on the road. It’s also some of the inexplicable losses earlier in the season and the collapse vs State at home. And it’s the too predictable and frustrating manner in which these losses occur. Carelessness with the ball, a bit too soft in finishing plays around the hoop and odd substitution patterns that often see mass substitutions at points when VU has built some momentum seem to be hallmarks of CKS’ teams the past few years. And regarding the substitutions, it seems he often goes to the bench significantly before even the first media time out. Really? Are we that poorly conditioned that our kids need a breather that early, even before we’ve established a flow to the game?
In any event, it’s much the same weaknesses and patterns that have led to our early tourney exits the past few years. And I’m sorry, three first round exits in the tourney to the teams we lost to should not be acceptable to a program from a power conference that claims that basketball is the bell cow of the athletic department.
I truly don’t know if getting rid of CKS is the answer. I’m not ready to propose that. But I think it’s entirely appropriate for folks to have concerns and frustrations about a team that was supposed to be so highly regarded coming into the season.
And one more thing…Go Dores!!
Agreed to an extent
Like I said, CKS definitely has his flaws. He is nowhere near perfect. But this team is still flawed, and those flaws would still be evident regardless of the system and coach in place. Perhaps another coach could get the team to play at it’s best every time out, but that seems like a very rare quality.
We have slow guards, and our reserves have not come around as we would have liked. But when CKS throws them into the fire they wilt, and when he treats them more cautiously they are unprepared for rougher environments.
And again, it makes sense to place into perspective of why the team was so highly regarded coming into the season. It was due to the players that CKS developed and recruited. It is pretty silly to suggest that he is a poor coach – he’s been around here for 13 seasons. If he were as poor a coach as has been suggested then he would have been let go a while ago. He certainly isn’t a good enough recruiter to mask being a horrible tactician.
But looking at the entire record in context makes a whole lot more sense than looking at single game samples that is the tournament. And in that situation the record is a lot more mixed than the pure disappointment of the first round exits.
First round exits
Fair or not, a program is defined by what happens in the big dance. It’s not fun to have the tag of the team from a power conference most likely to be upset in the first round. That stuff matters…and it sucks to have that label. I hope that changes soon.
by WestEndDynamite on Feb 6, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. That stuff does matter.
We are fans after all, and what most fans anticipate all season in any sport is seeing their team play, and hopefully win, postseason games. That is the pinnacle. And because the stakes are higher and the fans are more emotionally invested than at any other time, what happens in those games leaves deep, visceral impressions.
I know 3 games is an inadequate sample size when considering CKS’s coaching ability, but for fans of all dispositions, those 3 games mattered more to us than any other games the last 3 seasons.
Jason is right – CKS got us there by both good recruiting and solid coaching, but we all wonder if those 3 loses (and other similar efforts) do not represent a more systemic problem than the peculiar deficiencies of our current roster.
After last year’s loss to Richmond, JT said, "We feel like we had a great opportunity to do something big and we let it slip out of our hands again. It is one of the most painful things I think you can experience as an athlete."
And since we experience these games vicariously, that pain resides in a lot of folks here and pushes us to want a change. It may not be rational, but it is real.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Next year
The reserves that “are not coming around” – what do you think their record will be next year?
Let’s do it a) with Stallings and b) with someone else – even worst case scenario? Is there a big difference? Are we looking at a 4-12 v. 6-10 SEC mark?
Give us your prediction for the next 4 years with Stallings since you are concerned that losing him might set us back. Look at our recruiting class. If you need more, check if any top 100 in the class below are considering Vandy. It’s not good. King Rice brought those top 100 guys in, and he is not walking back through that door as an assistant.
PS – love how we developed A.J. – poor guy lost some $$ staying as long as he did. The team / guys we have seem to still have the same flaws they always had, so I’m not really agreeing with “the guys he recruited and developed” comment. That is everyone’s frustration – experts thought it was reasonable to expect us to improve from the team that lost to Richmond in the first round to a top 10 team. They overestimated Stallings’ ability to develop these guys and get them to play as a team.
I also love how AJ has blossomed now that he is getting better coaching.
Did you see how he killed it in the game last night against the Knicks? Oh wait, that’s right, he’s nowhere near the NBA and hasn’t really improved at all in the two seasons since he’s left VU. I also notice how none of the players we have have gone on to surprisingly productive NBA careers (like say, Rajon Rondo or even a Renaldo Balkman).
You also seem to be leaving out a major occurance from this season – Festus got injured and is nowhere near the player he was at the end of last season. But since that is an “excuse”, and helps explain the supposed stagnation, then it must be ignored, lest it detract from your point.
Can we talk about the substitutions, please...
Thanks for bringing that up. I thought I was the only one that noticed that we would get up 3 points on a team and the Great Bald Wiseman CKS would be like “Well, alright, let’s get those freshmen out there!”
It was glaring against Florida (remember the Press performance by Johnson). Thoughts?
So you are arguing that CKS is playing his starters too little?
Jeff played 37 minutes, John played 37 minutes, Brad played 35, and Lance played 32.
How should he do it, since he’s obviously such an idiot with his rotations?
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 6, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa, calm down
Dude, take a pill. If you want to have a discusson, that’s fine. But breathe first.
I am not saying he is playing the starters too little. I am saying he needs to do more single subs and less substitution sets. And yes, if we are losing, (which if you haven’t noticed, we have been) he needs to rethink parachuting three non-starters in at once simply because we are up three points.
And in case you didn’t notice, go take a look at the bench points against Florida. Yeah, not so hot. So clearly, all substitutions need to be re-examined. Did you happen to see the Xavier game where his substitution strategy SINGLEHANDEDLY LOST THE GAME because he waited for a media timeout at 12 minutes with Dai-Jon and Fuller just collapsing.
So yes, he is an idiot with his rotations. Buh-bye.
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