It's Time
by VandyImport on Feb 1, 2012 3:03 PM EST
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(NB: All opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone. King and Train have been very kind in allowing me the use of their soapbox, and in the cold light of day, I don't want my bourbon-fueled assessment of last night to reflect on anyone's judgement but my own. That said, I can't bottle this up any longer.)
Bright side first: We are 10-2 in our last 12 games, with only one of those losses coming in regulation (Arkansas, where we've won only once in the last seven or eight tries anyway), and our overall record shows that three of our six losses were against top-15-ranked teams. If you didn't know anything about this Vanderbilt team, you'd think things are going pretty well.
But we know about this team. More important, we know where we were ranked in the preseason. We know how this team has flamed out down the stretch for the last two years. And we know this year was when things were going to be different. In 2011-12, more than ever before, it was possible to say "the future is now" because we know what comes next year: barring a miracle, this team will have no scholarship seniors and only two juniors, one of whom only got meaningful playing time for the first time all season in last night's loss at Arkansas.
It's nobody's fault that Fes got hurt. It's asinine that he was suspended, but the injury did for that anyway. It's nobody's fault that Hendo was lost for the year and that we had to play with Stevie Thunder out of position for the first dozen games or so, and that our frontcourt didn't round into shape until January 1. Maybe we're just snakebit.
But we can no longer duck the question - we have to seriously consider whether the problem is at the end of the bench.
Here, then, is the bill of charges against Coach Kevin Stallings. J'accuse:
1) HE'S NOT COACHING WELL. This would seem to be tautological - the coach is doing a bad job because he's not coaching well - but I'm sick and tired of hearing post-game remarks like "we had a number of guys that didn't hold up their end of the bargain." You have five seniors. If they have been playing together for four years and somehow still aren't holding up their end of the bargain, it's time to consider that it may not be on the players. Setting aside the merits of throwing your team under the bus in the presser - again and again - the fact is that the starters on this team have been playing as a team for four seasons now. If it's going to happen, it should have happened by now - and if Stallings thinks it hasn't, he has only one place to look for an explanation.
2) HE'S NOT RECRUITING WELL. Again - barring a miraculous return by John Jenkins, we're going to have six scholarships free for 2012-13. Right now, my understanding is that we only have players for three of those slots. You can say that they put all their chips on landing Alex Poythress, but I will say that even if he turns out to be Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant, Lebron James and Smarty Jones all rolled into one, he can only play one spot on the floor, and that doesn't fill the other five slots. This team, bar Rod Odom and Kyle Fuller (assuming he doesn't transfer as has been rumored) will be composed entirely of freshmen and sophomores next season, and while next year is probably going to be a dumpster fire for the ages, the season after that will need guys who can use that seasoning and trial by fire and be ready to go. There's a very real possibility that we could put one scholarship senior on the floor in the next two seasons combined, and in a world where Kentucky can run one-and-done future NBA lottery picks out there every season, we need experienced talent.
3) HE'S NOT RESPONDING TO THE PRESSURE OF EXPECTATIONS. Siena. Murray State. Richmond. And now, Indiana State. Names that are carved in flaming blood on the hearts of the Commodore faithful, names that get flung in our face as March approaches, names that are cited as everyone from ESPN pundits to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES pencils us in for a first-round loss - correctly. We landed a 6 seed in 2004 and 2007 and gritted and luck-boxed our way into the Sweet Sixteen twice. We have since gotten two 4s and a 5 and been home by Friday night of the first weekend every time. We get a spot in the polls and the wheels come off. For a couple of years now, this team has blown double-digit leads against inferior competition and constantly left fans wincing and wondering where the next dagger was coming from. How many teams have fans that constantly fret that they'd be better off unranked? How many schools with three legit NBA prospects still feel like they have to sneak up on teams?
4) WE KNOW WE CAN DO BETTER. James Franklin made an impact without ever coaching a game, just by changing the attitude around football from day one. Tim Corbin put Vanderbilt baseball at the #1 spot for most of 2007 and last year delivered a College World Series berth at last. Kevin Stallings, in the last three years, has managed to assemble the most talented and potential-laden Vanderbilt basketball squad since - when? The Big Mac Attack? The F-Troop? Clyde Lee? - and delivered a team that struggles on the road, can't seem to get over the hump of Florida or Kentucky, and now loses regularly at home to teams that end in "State."
It's been a good run. It was a great turnaround after the VBK debacle. It really looked promising for a while there, and it was fun to dream the big dream. But in the end, the dream didn't die because of the other SEC talent, or because players didn't hold their end up, or because the lure of NBA prep school was too strong, or because of the curse of Jimmy Dykes, or because of the SEC Officiating Random Event Generator. You could blame a game, or maybe a season, but not five years of deflation. For that, there's only one explanation.
I know it was you, Kevin. You broke my heart.
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I think that if he does go deep this year
he either retires or VCDW starts to talk to him about looking somewhere else. I said this last night, I would not be upset if he was not coaching next year but I cannot deny the consistant success that he has brought. If he did retire, I would certainly consider giving King Rice a long look but shoot for someone like Prohm, Mcdermott, or Jeff Capel (current Duke Assistant Coach, fmr Sooner HC)
Vandy Fan. Yankee by birth, Southern by choice.
The Twitterz Tag
Remember the 5!
mean doesn't go deep this year
Vandy Fan. Yankee by birth, Southern by choice.
The Twitterz Tag
Remember the 5!
Capel?
Noooooooooooooooooooo.
The problem with quotations on the internet is, you don't know whether they're accurate. - Abraham Lincoln
by Anything but Gatorade on Feb 3, 2012 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
Very well stated
and expands on some thoughts I’ve been having recently.
Pull together this year for as however far it can go. And then see about moving in another direction next season. KS has taken this team as far as it can go. It is rather unlikely that he’ll ever assemble a better collection of talent than he has right now.
He has had a good run. He has markedly improved the outlook and expectations of the team in his tenure. But similarly, it is clear that this season is as far as he’s realistically going to be able to go.
I agree completely
that a lot of the failings of the team have to be coach related. As a coach, how do you constantly watch your team blow leads, at home no less, and not make some sort of change? We cannot win close games even with one of the most athletic players in the country, one of the best shooters in the country, and one of the best post players in the country? That has to be a joke right? He never was able to adjust for Fez being out. I love our basketball team, but it has gotten to the point that they are hard to watch just because I always have this thought of a huge collapse in the back of my mind. That shouldn’t be there with the amount of talent we have on this team.
"the curse of Jimmy Dykes"
ok, sure, whatever, its not his fault. but can we still agree he is an asshat?
Most college teams collapse like VU, we just don’t see it. Louisville had 18 point lead and lost to Marquette, Florida lost a 10 point lead in the final 90 seconds and lost to Rutgers. It is unfortunately the nature of the beast. Losing all these close games is another matter. I’m optimistic that VU gets on another run and wins the next 10 of 12 and it starts with Fla.
No, it's not, but ...
it may be in March.
This season isn’t blown. But he definitely needs to figure out how to push the right buttons with this group … I appreciate what Stallings has done for the program, but he’s not above reproach. And, we can expect better than the results of the last four years …
For what it's worth...
I’m open to arguments in favor of keeping Stallings around, and if he can somehow pull off a deep run into March, I am prepared to re-evaluate my stance. But based on past performance, I’m not optimistic. And it’s a shame – this bunch of guys is a special group and I’m going to be sorry to see them go no matter when it is…
Meanwhile – Florida on Saturday. Fill the flasks and lace up tight…
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
How attractive a job is Vanderbilt?
If DW were to contemplate a coaching move, he has to assess how attrative the job is, and what reasonable expectations are for the next coach. Our fan base isn’t getting any larger, and our academic issues are what they are. Unlike baseball or even football, the best players aren’t required to stick around for three years, which greatly reduces the academic arguement.
And why would a three game winning streak in the tournament change your mind? That doesn’t really make sense to judge a coach based on such a small sample size of games – we could very well get a favorable matchup in the tournament and get lucky as opposed to unlucky. CKS has coached over 400 games here – that is surely more than enough of a sample size to make a determination of his coaching abilitites.
I think that we very well could do better than CKS. But there is a very good chance that we could do worse. Also a decent chance we could end up with about the same in terms of results. I’d put it at 20% chance of doing better, 50% chance of doing worse and 30% chance of remaining the same.
Therein lies the rub
Based on your % chances, it makes sense to stay the same. Keep CKS. And maybe those percentages are reasonable.
So the question becomes, is it worth the chance to upgrade and take the program to a higher level? Or does the status quo become acceptable and understand that this is as far as its likely to go?
As someone who’s followed the program for over 30 years, I can see the argument that he’s been the best coach at Vandy since Roy Skinner and perhaps ever. But I think we’ve found the ceiling of CKS and its wherever this season ends up. In my mind, he is very unlikely to surpass this team’s talent level ever again. Not to say that he can’t catch a Derrick Byars/Shan Foster lightning-in-a-bottle NCAA run again. Its possible. But again, its not likely that he’ll ever have the talent that he does now.
In my mind, the calculus changes after this season. We are very likely to really struggle.for at least a couple of years. After this season would be the time to bring in a fresh face to roll the dice on an improvement. The new coach will have a lot of scholarship space to bring in guys he wants. And low expectations early given the age of the team. He could build the team in his image.
You only get one chance at life. Don’t want to go to your grave with regrets of things you were afraid to try. The same theory applies here in my mind.
I’d take the shot at taking this program to a higher level.
You are not VCDW
The costs to you of an error are relatively minor. The costs to VCDW OTOH are much higher. An “AD” who fires a successful coach and ends up with a much less successful coach would find his job in jeapordy, while as things are going now, VCDW’s job is quite sound, given the successes of Baseball and the hiring of CJF.
Very easy for the average fan to roll the dice, because they have very, very little at stake. If the next coach is a bust, perhaps you simply go to less games (as countless others have done in football). But for the person who makes the decision, that would be a disasterous results in terms of overall job security.
OK, so lets carry out the logic flow a bit further
You make some very good points about the AD’s job security and the message sent about firing a winning coach. Fair enough, its not politically appropriate to let him go after this season, assuming his contract isnt up. So after next year, when the team likely will struggle to make the NIT, things become politically more appropriate. Politics are relevant and should be a material consideration.
But of course, then there will likely be fewer scholarships available. But that’s the way it goes.
The cautionary tale of Herb Sendek
There are not a whole lot of cases where a team lets go of a successful coach coming off of multiple tournament appearances. One such case was NC State and Herb Sendek. I suppose that Sendek wasn’t technically let go, but the fan base was definitely dissatisfied with his performances. He had brought in some pretty good players, and was making the tournament regularly, but had some underperforming teams, including the 2004 team that was knocked out of the 2nd round by VU. He certainly wasn’t living up to the standard set by Valvano, nor getting NCSU anywhere near the glory years of 1974 or 1983.
They replaced Sendek with former star Sidney Lowe. In five seasons Lowe didn’t make the tournament a single time, and was fired last season, only to be replaced with Mark Gottfried, who had been fired from Bama just two seasons earlier. Gottfried was probably their 3rd choice, as coaches like Shaka Smart and Richmond’s coach turned down job offers from them.
Now NCSU has a much better history than Vanderbilt does, a much larger fan base, plays in a better conference histroically, a nice on-campus facility and has lower standards to recruit from. And the best they could do was Mark Gottfried. Now, we certainly could do better, and I’ve been impressed with VCDW’s hiring of James Franklin. But firing CKS would send a clear message to any potential coaching candidate – simply making the tournament is not good enough. You will be expected to take the previous height of the program (sweet 16’s in the expanded tournament era) and that will essentially be your baseline. I’m not sure that is the best formula for getting a coach to take us to the next “next” level.
It would be different for me...
…if the tournament appearances were other than one-and-done, especially as a 5 seed or higher every time. But you’re right, I don’t think three games this year would do it. Split with Kentucky and Florida, sweep UT, win the season finale for once and make it as far as the SECT title game (even if not winning it) – that would be more impressive to me than if we just slouch into March and then somehow get hot long enough to make the Sweet 16 again.
I think the abiding issue is the combination of the flameouts with the lack of push in the SEC tournament and the fact that somehow, some way, we always seem to lose that last game of the season before the SECT. Over and over, we seem to be underachieving. Now perhaps this is our natural level, and we just inexplicably get hyped above our actual quality and capabilities – but what happened in 2004 and 2007 fed the belief that we ought to be able to get more out of the talent than what we’ve had these last three years.
Maybe after next year’s bloodbath we’ll all feel differently, and all of us – national media included – will have more realistic expectations. And I know that Sweet 16 teams are like bowl games around here – not easy things to get and certainly not to be counted on as a birthright the way they are in Lexington. But the bigger problem is that this is a program that for five years now always sort of feels like it’s delivering eight dimes for a dollar, and that’s not a good place for our notional flagship sport to be.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Who is hyping us?
Perrennially, we are picked in the bottom half of the SEC-East. I think this season and 2008 were the only two season where we were picked above 4th in our division. This is the first season where we were considered an actual lock for the NCAA tournament, and that was assuming Festus was 100% healthy and available for the entire season – look at Lunardi’s preseason brackets – they almost never include Vanderbilt (this season and 2011 were the only two season, and we were a #11 seed in 2011).
I think you need to separate what your expectations of the team are compared to what the consensus expectations have been. We’ve pretty much exceeded the national expectations in each of the previous four seasons in terms of either making the tournament and/or tournament seeding. The past few tournaments have been disappointed because of the expectations built up during the regular season, not the preseason. And the regular seasons have uniformly exceeded the preseason expectations of the team.
No one in the nation has expectations for Vandy because we can’t win games when they count in the SEC and NCAA tourney. The expectations are only with the Vandy fans. We know the greatness of the teams these last several years, the talent we have, and we know what could have been and what should have been. Did I expect to make it at least to the Sweet 16 this year? There was no doubt in my mind until I realized we still had Stallings on the bench. Can you honestly tell this group that Stallings deserves to keep his job? I would rather have a mediocre team with no talent and no expectations (like Vandy football in the past) and get excited for upsets then watch this crap year after year.
At least I can identify a coach that we can get that would satisfy you.
I would rather have a mediocre team with no talent and no expectations (like Vandy football in the past) and get excited for upsets then watch this crap year after year.
Huh. So you basically prefered the VBK years. I’ll be he’s available if you asked him. I kind of like knowing that my team is going to make the tournament, but I’m funny that way. Somehow I’ve managed to make it through the tragedy of losing tournament games.
I graduated in 2004 and have watched every game since 2000 so not sure about the pre-Stallings years but if I would have no expectations like I do with Vandy football than 100% yes bring back the VBK years!! My blood wouldn’t boil after blown games, I could sleep better, and I wouldn’t have to waste my time and money traveling to Nashville and the tourney games only to get mentally and emotionally punished . I’d go once a year to a game like I do with football with no expectations and enjoy myself. It is all Stallings fault……
That's funny.
My blood wouldn’t boil after blown games, I could sleep better, and I wouldn’t have to waste my time and money traveling to Nashville and the tourney games only to get mentally and emotionally punished.
Well, I definitely believe you when you say you don’t know anything about the VBK years. I suppose I could put it this way – we were basically Rice, or maybe Northwestern.
I would suggest looking at the fact book and the yearly records starting at around 1982 (around when coach Newton took over). It would help with your perspective of what CKS has accomplished.
I have this conversation with all of my friends, all of which once loved CKS as I did, but now hate him and want him gone. He brought the program to a respectable level no doubt and at one time was good for our program so I thank him for that but it is apparent over the last 5 years that he can never lead us to be great and a team with Final Four potential or even SEC champion potential. He should have been fired after the Murray St. loss to see what talent + a good coach = these last 2 years (we have now wasted two years of our program with our best talent ever now).
He has had a lifetime to learn how to coach not just recruit. Read my last post, if he could fathom and execute those 3 points to the end of the year, then I will reevaluate my current thoughts about CKS. I am tired of this, how many times do we have to blow leads or not be up for games when we are ranked and lose to no name opponents? No preparation, no fire, and now his recruiting has fallen off so he needs to dramatically change his coaching and prove he can be an elite coach. I am exhausted just thinking about how atrocious his coaching has been the last several years.
In the 12 years prior to Stallings (1987/88-1998/99), we had the exact same number of NCAA tournament appearances (5), the same number of Sweet 16 appearances (2), but we also had one SEC Championship.
Btw – JF – David Williams lose his job over an athletic hire/fire? Are you serious? The university General Counsel, Vice Chancelor of University Affairs, Secretary of the University, Law Professor and Education Professor fired over a coaching hire/fire? Do you realize Todd Turner kept his job until the position was eliminated? Remember his hires / fires? Do you think the BOT is closely monitoring his playtime fooling with the department of student athletics and intramurals or concerned about how he manages the legal affairs of the med center. Come on!!!! He is too busy to fool with basketball.
It took 6 seasons
To get to 87-88, and a whole lot of mediocrity. We rode that wave and had 4 of those tournament appearances in a short period, and then a general slide into mediocrity during the VBK seasons. CKS spent four season getting us out of that mediocrity to the point where we’ve made the tournament four of the last 5 seasons (about to be 5 of six). We were really bad to mediocre from 82-87, and the coach who took 6 season to get us to where we are now got the AD job at UK.
And it is clear you don’t remember this, but the league in the late 80’s early 90’s was kind of a joke. UK went on probation in 1990 or 1989, UT was horrible, and most everybody else didnt’ care at all about basketball. But from 1993 to 2002, we didn’t beat UK 1 single time. We had something like 22 consecutive losses to UK.
People who act as if it cannot get worse simply don’t remember when it was worse.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough, but for what it's worth...
Herb Sendek is probably going to be fired again. He did well initially at Arizona State—largely with someone else’s recruits—but has been terrible lately. I doubt he’ll last. So the problem was not necessarily that NC State got rid of Sendek as it was that they hired Sidney Lowe.
That said, I think the idea of firing CKS is insane.
by Tim in Surrey on Feb 2, 2012 3:24 AM EST up reply actions
That's the point to some extent.
They hired Lowe because nobody else who was good would take the job. They can see that they have to face Duke and UNC, but the fan base wanted more than annual tournament appearances.
We fire CKS, and who in their right mind wants the job? Odds are they will do no better (and easily could do worse) than CKS, so anybody with an actual future isnt’ going to touch the job. So we’d have to take a chance on a low major guy or an unknown. It could easily be a repeat of VBK.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
NCST
Has the #2 recruiting class in the country. They fight 3 schools in the same state with rich histories. Gotfried took Bama to the elite 8. Auburn has been to the sweet 16 the same number of times as CKS since he arrived at Vandy.
by VUDORE2824 on Feb 1, 2012 6:24 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Auburn
Also fired the coach that took them to said sweet 16’s (which were almost a decade ago) and have since been a laughing stock in the SEC.
recruiting scandals
Will get you fired. Hard to recover.
by VUDORE2824 on Feb 1, 2012 6:32 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
As is firing successful coaches.
Who want to take the job where it will be expected that you do better than anybody has ever done before, and even good results will be grounds for firing?
BTW, recruiting has not really been the issue with NCSU – they had a great recruiting class two seasons ago as well. If you are arguing that NCSU is better off without Sendek, you are doing a very poor job of doing so. CKS>>Gottfried in case you hadn’t noticed. CKS beat CMG’s team more often than not despite Bama’s great talent advantage.
I would hope the person taking the job would want to take a job expecting to do better than anyone before him
YES!!!! I’m sure CJF was thinking – I want to go in and perform a little below expectations, maybe reach them… No – he said “revolution!” No more same old expectations! Dream big! Ask for more than mediocrity!
I hope we would not go after anyone who would be scared of following up 3 first round losses in 3 tournament appearances over the last 4 years. I also hope no one goes into a job scared of expectations… A lot of college coaches get paid serious money to outperform their contemporaries and those who came before them. I doubt following in the shadow of 2 sweet sixteens in 12 years will scare off many good candidates!
Sweet 16s
Were great for our program back in 2007. It’s 2012 and we haven’t even gotten to the round of 32 since. Firing CKS would send the message that you can’t just make the tournament with great talent and that possibly good coaching could turn a mediocre Vandy team going forward into a potential Sienna, Murray Sate, or Richmond that upsets teams in the tourneys or could turn a good Vandy team into a winner past the first round in the SEC or NCAA tourney.
Stallings Must Be Fired
Let me start off by saying that I agree with VandyImport on every point about Kevin Stallings. This season has been already been a complete failure bottom line unless we miraculously make it the Final Four (yes, that should be everyone’s expectations about this team this year) but I can guarantee you that that won’t happen because we will lose 1st round, why? because of the same reason we have lost the last 3 times in the 1st round.
The coaching is atrocious to put it as mildly as possible that goes for the assistants as well for not getting a clue and figuring it out over the years. There are a plethora of problems with the coaching but let me focus on just 3 of the serious problems.
1.) Clock management. If you noticed last night, Arkansas got a double digit lead and kept it. How did they do it? They ran time off the clock at least 20 seconds each possession then drove to the basket and got fouled or scored. If they didn’t score, they burned 30-35 seconds off the clock. This year when we go up by more than 15, I turn the game off and go to bed because either we win big and I saw all I needed to or because I want to prevent another sleepless night thinking of what could have been as we blew another huge lead because the coaching used timeouts ineffectively to stop momentum and did not have a game plan to manage the clock. Stallings, this is has been a reoccurring theme for years! When we are up double digits and lose a game, it effects the entire season and mental state of the players.
2.) Full court press. If I am going to coach against Vandy and I could easily do so with a mediocre team ending with state. I would just tell my guys to full court press the entire game. Do we not practice how to break the press??? The turnovers just kill us and it isn’t just one game, it’s every game. It isn’t just one guy turning the ball over, it’s 5 guys because they haven’t practiced how to break the press effectively. Shame on you Stallings, this is your job!!!!
3.) We play way too many guys. I don’t need to elaborate on this too much or throw certain players under the bus but there are two in particular that should never see a minute in a game. Furthermore, if we are going to play every guy on the bench every game, we should be full court pressing the entire game or until the other team has proved that they have practiced breaking the press. There is no excuse that we shouldn’t have everyone going 100% up and down the court. Louisville full court pressed us the entire game with 7 guys. Another quick point, if we are playing more than adequately rested players, they should be defending the 3 more effectively. The amount of 3s that we let in with Miss St. and Arkansas is unthinkable. Guess what Stallings was doing after having to call a TO after they hit 3 consecutive threes, clapping and patting his guys on the back saying try harder guys. I mean get pissed, sit guys, this team lacks discipline, heart, you name it because of coaching. Don’t sit there with that goofy smile and then laugh when you are shaking the other coaches hand at the game. He is laughing at you!
Kevin Stallings should have been fired years ago. This was supposed to be an exciting year, something that I was looking forward to since our 1st round exit last year. We should have stayed in the top 10 all year regardless of Fes being out and that would have significantly helped our recruiting going forward. Stallings has turned what was once my favorite thing to watch and get excited about to something that I dread watching because I have to see the same coaching mistakes being made over and over again for the last 5 years. I question everything about Stallings at this point. There is one guy on the bench that for sure could not get in to Vanderbilt and he is the most critical component. A high school coach could have led this team better than Stallilngs did this year. It really is a shame because the season is ruined already and our future doesn’t look bright!
Can we get Franklin to take over as interim coach and Stallings as assistant only used for out of timeout plays for this year? Thats right Stallings thats all you are good for.
Once in a Century
I am furious because this is not just a once in a decade kind of team. With the talent that we have with probably 3 NBA draft players this year, this is a once in a century team for Vanderbilt! We may never get another chance like we have this year to go deep into the SEC or NCAA tourney. Who is satisfied with 16-6 record so far this year and another #5 seed upcoming?
So let's fire the coach who gave us that chance!
We may never get another chance like we have this year to go deep into the SEC or NCAA tourney.
I’m amazed at people complaining about our supposed “mediocrity” who have never actually experienced the actual mediocrity that has been our general basketball existance. I don’t understand the idea that NCAA tournament appearances are some sort of birthright for VU fans, or people who think that CKS doesn’t know his X’s and O’s.
We’ve got a banner hanging up in our gym celebrating our 1994 runner up appearance at the NIT (I was there). Think about that and exactly what is says about our program.
You get rid of a coach when it is clear that it would be very difficult to do worse with somebody else or if were are far underperforming what could reasonably be expected from the program (not against the height of the program). Nobody on this thread has come remotely close to making either case.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
We have made the tournament 5 out of 12 years
If we go this year, that is still below 50%. Yes we have been to the tournament 5 of the last 8 years, but before that Stallings was pretty much on par with JVBK – if not worse (insert argument that it took time to get his guys in here – but remember that the cupboard is bear next year and that it took him 4 YEARS to get to an NCAA tourney and another 2 NITs following it to return). If you will remember, there was a shakeup in 2003 that probably saved his job after a 11-18 season and the most embarrassing loss in the history of Vanderbilt athletics (106-44 at UK) – we dropped our AD position. If we are really looking back at old coaches that are available, why don’t we look to someone that made the tournament 50% of his seasons with a sweet 16 and one SEC championship in 4 years? I would argue that those are the years to look for our potential, and not JVBK.
First of all
WE were a tournament in 2000 – we just got screwed out of a spot. Second, since you seem to need more history lessons, VBK left the cupboard completely bear after his first season. We basically had 5 healthy scholarship playeres during his first season, and three of them were seniors. He took over a program on the decline.
Fogler OTOH, took over a program on ascent, having just gone to back to back tournaments. He went to the NIT the next season in a league that had no powers (UK was on probation), and lost in the first round the next season (I was in Tucson), then was a 15-15 team, and got Billy Mac and Chris Lawson and rode a down league to a championship. Awesome season, but he jumped ship after it to go to…South Carolina. We were such a great job that he went to an in conference competitior with very little basketball history or facilities.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Fogler also
likely would have had us on probation too. At the time, I had some sources close to the team and what was happening behind the scenes. I have no doubt that Fogler would have had us as a regular in the NCAAs. But also on probation. The administration chose (correctly in my view) to take the high road and part ways.
Exactly
I don’t think I’ve EVER commented on an online messageboard, but this is something that I’ve felt strongly about for a long, long time.
I never understood why television analysts give Stallings credit for being one of the “best X’s and O’s coaches.” He is great at drawing plays out of timeouts, but abysmal in every other facet of the game. In fact, when I was at Vandy, it never looked like we had any out-of-bounds plays, and only now do we. Does anyone remember the halcyon days of the early 2000s when every baseline out-of-bounds play resulted in a long pass into the backcourt for Lakey, Moore, or Gordon to go collect? I can only assume that we need to wait another six years to get an effective press break.
Mentioning the press break… it is unreal that a major conference D-I coach who worked with Roy Williams doesn’t know that THERE HAVE TO BE SCREENS TO BREAK A PRESS.
I coach high school freshman basketball, and Vandy games are hard to watch. In fact, I basically told my players to never watch a Vandy game because I’m trying to instill fundamentals and situational awareness in them. I’m pretty sure there is NO work done in practice on boxing out or rebounding, and if there is, it’s pretty much just Lance doing it alone. Switching on screens? That’s something that weak teams do because they don’t want to show and recover and fight through screens. Simply pathetic. Defense? Going to a zone and staying in a zone when teams are drilling threes on you (see: last night) is just plain stupid.
The bottom line: This is not a tough team, and that is more of a reflection of the coach than the players at this point. They have flashes, but they are few and far between. We all know what this team is capable of, and we also all know how this story ends. If this team gets to the Sweet Sixteen with Stallings on the bench, I’ll be shocked.
Stallings needs to go. He should have been gone years ago. Arguing for him to stay is embracing mediocrity at best. Making the tournament out of a major conference isn’t that big of a deal when 68 of 344 teams make it.
By the way, Herb Sendek is doing an awesome job at ASU, right?
by CommodoreInCA on Feb 2, 2012 2:54 AM EST up reply actions
Well
Sendek took an ASU team that had gone 10-17, 19-12 and 10-17 in the three previous seasons, had a rough first season going 8-22 and then won 22, 25 and 21 games over the next three seasons. I don’t know if you arguing that ASU is a great job (it isn’t), but it is much more instructive to look at how NCSU has done than to see what Sendek has done at a worse job.
If you think our problems have to do with breaking the press, you just aren’t paying attention or don’t really understand the issues of the team. The idea that you are critiquing CKS’ coaching ability is laughable, especially the manner in which you’ve gone about it.
I’m glad you aren’t coaching this team, because I’ll bet we’d get drilled every night. You seem to show very little understanding of the player’s strengths and weaknesses.
Seriously?
First of all, a few things about me:
1. I have been a Vandy fan since before I went to the school in the early 2000s, so I am very familiar with the JVBK years.
2. I played basketball all my life (4 years of varsity instruction), in addition to BEING a Vanderbilt student-athlete (not basketball), so I would say I’m pretty familiar with Vanderbilt athletics.
3. I have coached high school basketball for four years at two top-flight programs in Arizona and California. I have also had one of Sendek’s first big recruits come out of a program I worked with. Guess where I heard a lot of the basketball ideals and fundamentals I’m talking about? That’s right, I attend coaches clinics put on by the best of the best (note: Stallings is never at them).
All of that said, to indicate that we’d get drilled every night if I was coaching the team is laughable. I have plenty of ideas about our players’ strengths and weaknesses. But the things that they struggle with aren’t issues of limitations, they’re issues of effort and coaching. You don’t have to be a phenomenal athlete to box your man out. You don’t have to be a phenomenal athlete to make a solid pass to an open man who was set up by an organized press break involving screens. You don’t have to be a great defender to show and recover on a ball screen or to get in help side defense (another thing this team NEVER does). Go watch any consistently successful college basketball program and tell me that they don’t do those things.
And to even compare college basketball to college football is ridiculous, but for the sake of argument, I’ll indulge: 6-6 is the very definition of mediocrity to most of college football, but here it’s treated like something special. There are too many bowl games. But this isn’t a discussion about football.
by CommodoreInCA on Feb 2, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Well said
I would take you as our coach over CKS tomorrow based solely on the fact that you attend clinics and are trying to improve and learn as a coach. If he truly is teaching these guys the full court press break and other simple drills and the players aren’t executing, they should sit the bench or there should be consequences. Don’t worry about Jason, he doesn’t know what winning constitutes. Thanks again for posting!
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
I run a successful small business
I would be a better CEO than Jeff Bezos
Ha
I am also not applying to be a D-I coach for a reason. I never said I’d be better than Stallings. I said that to imply that we’d get drilled if I was the coach is laughable. It’s not like they’re getting drilled now; they’re just blowing tremendous leads instead.
by CommodoreInCA on Feb 2, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sure we all have brilliant ideas about how to get JJ open 3s when he has our opponent’s best defender on him, constantly being doubled off any sort of pick. Are we all just overlooking simple things that Stallings does better than anyone, like perfect slip screen plays (to win games – see Neltner; UT win in 2007) and zone actions that free up the best shooter in the country?
by End of the Bench on Feb 2, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
The difference
Those are specialty plays. I’m talking about the very fundamentals of basketball. Simply put, Stallings’ Vandy teams have been abominations in this respect.
If you don’t have those basic concepts down, it doesn’t matter how great you are at drawing all of the more complex stuff up. You cannot build a sturdy house with a wonderful atrium and beautiful staircases if you have a foundation with glaring cracks. Sure, it’ll look pretty while it stands. But when it collapses, it’s ugly.
by CommodoreInCA on Feb 2, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
It is sad
Thanks for posting CommodoreinCA because we need the die hard Vandy fans to voice their opinion at this point because the coaching and preparation for games is beyond unacceptable. It is extremely sad that you tell your highschool team basically not to watch the games but I completely understand the reasoning and agree with you.
It is apparent to me that the entire teams sits there and take 3s all practice while Fes works on his inside game. What is Stallings doing during practice? Taking half court shots from behind his back…..
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Have you actually been to a practice?
I assume the last comment was in jest.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Last post
I have been to practices and I said that half jokingly. Making the tournament with this calibur of team is not good enough. Tell me Calipari, Donovan, Williams, Beheim, any elite coach wouldn’t take this talented team deep into the tournament. I can guarantee you that we would not be 16-6 with any of these coaches. I hope I am proven wrong in the coming weeks that coaches can change and do their homework to have their players prepared and succeed during games.
It is fans like yourself that give CKS too much credit and this is the reason why he feels so comfortable about his job. If he felt his job was somewhat in jeopardy, there might be some urgency and not a guy sitting their collecting his paycheck knowing that if he just makes the tournament he has nothing to worry about.
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
All the coaches you listed
Have coached with far better talent that we have. But in those rare season when they have had equal talent levels, the results have been less than impressive.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
You missed the point
I said with our talent this year, tell me that any of those coaches wouldn’t take us deep into the tourney. Our talent is just as good as UFs this year and watch how far they go vs. us in the tourney.
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
You missed the point
UK has far more talent than we do. UF has easily as much talent if not more than we do.
We are selected where we are because of the amount of experience we have. There are no lottery picks on this team, unlike the teams of the coaches you mentioned.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think this exchange highlights the problem with your thinking
Vanderbilt isn’t Kentucky. You’re not going to get Calipari. And if you do, you’re not going to keep him. I just don’t think Vanderbilt is a destination basketball school for an elite coach. It’s a great school, and a destination school for a good, solid coach—but not for an elite coach. That said, i wouldn’t include Donovan in a list of elite coaches, 2 titles in a row or not.
I also bring a relative outsider’s perspective here, so maybe I’m off. Maybe your goal is to become Duke and forge an elite basketball rep. If that’s the case, then sure, fire CKS and take a chance with somebody. But I think that’s a bad move.
World Domination is exactly what we want.
But we don’t want to be like Duke. Too “new money” for my taste.
This talented team?
Don’t forget that besides JJ, these kids were not “elite talent” when they came out of high school. You can’t ignore the development of talent when considering the merits of Stallings’ success. Look at guys like Derrick Jasper, Alex Legion, Ramar Smith or other top 40 recruits in the SEC who flamed out. Now who flamed out for us? Not our 3 star prospects like Shan, Derrick, Red, Festus, or even Ross (2 stars) and Cage.
by End of the Bench on Feb 2, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
I will offer a few things he's done well
—Stallings’ staff has done an excellent job in bringing Festus along and developing him into the player he is.
—Stallings is a phenomenal recruiter (this year excepted). It’s too bad the talent is then thrown under the bus when the coach stubbornly refused to adapt when things didn’t go his way.
—Stallings has done an excellent job getting quick open looks at the basket when the clock is down. The problem is that we shouldn’t have even had those issues in the majority of the games when we get there (Miss. State being the most recent example).
by CommodoreInCA on Feb 2, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Honest Question
Does Stallings have a reputation as a great recruiter, or does much of that fall on the coaching staff?
I’ve heard a lot of folks here suggest that King Rice was sort of the ring leader in that respect.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I was under that impression as well
Remember how much he used to love to say in post game press conferences: “We just don’t have the same kind of talent as those guys on the other side of the court.”? Now we just get: “Well, I must have done something wrong, it must be my fault, I will work on figuring out what we can do to change that…” or “I told them that this was going to be a tough game, I guess they didn’t listen or take me seriously. I don’t know what else I could have done or can do.” Anyone else have any good recurring post game comments that especially annoy them that they would like to share?
The thing that tipped me over the edge and produced this post...
…was the combination of a nice Buffalo Trace Old Fashioned and the post game quote ""we had a number of guys that didn’t hold up their end of the bargain." Now, blame this on growing up in Alabama in the 1970s, but when I watched the Bear Bryant show after church on Sunday with my Golden Flake and Co-Cola, the good stuff was always “THEY did this” and the bad was “I didn’t do this.”
Say what you like in the locker room – hell, say what you must – but to me, to throw up your hands in the post game press conference and say that your players aren’t getting it done is both unbelievably gauche and an absolute reflection on the job you did coaching them up. That, more than anything else, is what’s driven me up the wall this season.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
I will absolutely agree on Fes...
…to take this kid who barely knew what a basketball was and make a first-round NBA prospect of him is an accomplishment, especially if you remember how raw he was as a redshirt freshman. It’s a credit to the staff and to his own work ethic and it’s something the program should rightfully hang its hat on.
Dammit, why couldn’t that knee stay healthy…
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Reason for Hope (this year).
%100 agree on Fes. And guess what? He is only getting healthier and better as the season goes on, and that is why I’m especially bullish on this team as we near the postseason.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn't have said it much better myself...
The only thing that is missing is that it looks like zero fun to play for Stallings… Remember, this is a game, that kids are supposed to be passionate about. Passion is rooted in fun. No fun = no passion = no success.
by CorneliusHimself on Feb 1, 2012 11:41 PM EST reply actions
Long time listener, First time caller
I have to say that I read this blog daily, and I don’t understand the panic. We are all aware that Arkansas has not lost a home game yet this year, right? That is not a bad team, and they are led by a great coach, so first off we need to take our hands of the panic button.
It seems ludicrous to think that we should have stayed in the Top 10 without Festus. We played one of the hardest non-conference schedules ever, and were a couple of misses away from 2 Top 15 wins. This year is not ideal, but we haven’t even played our biggest games of the season. I wonder how everyone will feel if we take care of business at home against UK and UF – praising Stallings for his game plan, etc. against better talent. Because believe it or not, those teams have much better talent then we do.
Why is Brad Tinsley so good? How did we land a stud like Jeff Taylor and Festus? Remember that Tinsley chose Pepperdine first, and Taylor decided between us and Ne Mexico. These weren’t recruiting battles with UK, UNC and Duke. We aren’t going to win those with Stallings or anyone else.
Because these guys weren’t studs coming out of high school, they were build by this coaching staff. Same with Shan Foster, same with Byars, same with Beal. None of these guys started their college careers as highly touted as the “top SEC recruits” we see from other programs, so lets give Stallings credit for doing what he can with the players he has.
Second, does anyone really think the recent football situation is comparable at all to the basketball program? We were the laughing stock of the SEC, and we went .500 this year. Admirable, but a long way from successful. Bowl games and all that are exciting, but you’d be just as excited for a 5 seed if you hadn’t been to the tourney in 4+ years.
We are not a program who can make a change and expect everyone to treat the program with the same or more respect. Like it or not, Vanderbilt basketball is Kevin Stallings right now, its how we recruit and how we play. No one is coming here to play because of the city or the education, at least no one you all would be satisfied with based on their Scout or Rivals rankings.
This thread sounds like the same spoiled fans who show up late and don’t get up for big games. The minute we take success for granted, we will go back to mediocrity, because the truth is that VU cannot complete with the money and freedom of the SEC. We are playing with a short deck, and doing a hell of a job.
by End of the Bench on Feb 2, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Louisville and Xavier are not good teams even though they were top 25 unlike Vandy that has talent and 3 potential NBA players. What they do have is good coaching that manages the clock, inspires their players to give 100%, have game plans going into the game, and make half time adjustments. CKS brings none of that to the table. Their coaching beat us. We should be 20-2. I am fine with Arkansas loss but felt it appropriate to comment to a post about CKS at this point after what has been a very disappointing and shameful season.
Do you honestly think we are going to beat UK and UF with our coaching? We are going up against Donovan and Calapari. It’s not a team vs. team game at this point, its a coach vs coach game and for that reason we will not win any of those games.
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Didn’t we beat them both last year, with the same team we have right now, and the same coach?
I absolutely think we will win both games at home, and hope that we can give UF a run this weekend. I can dream about giving Coach Cal his first home loss, but maybe you will enjoy that game, since we will be the complete underdog with no chance of winning. Again, you may enjoy that outlook, but I prefer providing strong competition, which has been there against UK and UF the past 4 years.
by End of the Bench on Feb 2, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Does anyone seriously think we are NOT going to be in a really bad situation next year?
Either Stallings is going to have to rebuild or someone else will. This thread makes it sound like we have a team coming back next year? Like we are going to slip back into oblivion if we are pulled from Stallings’ bosom? Do Jeff, Lance, Brad, Fes, and Steve have extra eligibility left that I am not aware of? If Jenkins comes back (not that I think he is ready to go to the NBA, but AJ could only take 3 years of Stallings), we will get to watch the JJ chuckathon for a year! Write down next year’s roster and read it aloud 5 times while looking in the mirror. Then reply.
We are done
Yes, we all do. We are completely screwed and that is why people are so mad that this season has been a complete failure because we are not going to have any shot under CKS with even less talent for years. Now that CKS recruiting luck has run out, what are we left with a program that will be in shambles for years to come. I am really hoping that I am pleasantly surprised with the rest of the season but I doubt I will be.
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Not a Failure
The season has been far from a complete failure. It has been disappointing in many ways, but mainly just frustrating since every time we think we are over some of the issues, they seem to reappear. I think the problem with losing the Arkansas game wasn’t so much that we lost, but that we saw such poor play from Jeff and John (in particular) and another 2nd half where we didn’t appear to be hustling enough.
While next year certainly doesn’t look promising, I really think John will think long and hard about leaving. I am hoping the freshman will develop. We’ve been there before.
I think Stallings is the best we can do right now and I am going to hope for the best.
by foreverhopeful on Feb 2, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
VandyImport
I can’t help but feel partly responsible for this, since I encouraged you to go ahead and post your late-night ruminations. They were much more lucid than you implied, and are clearly in sync with some other folk’s opinions.
I voiced the opinion that Stallings should be let go after last year’s first round loss to Richmond. At the time, it was just too much of the same.
This year I’ve watched a ton more basketball, not just all of our games but plenty of other SEC games. My conclusion thus far is that – with the exception of a handful of elite coaches – it’s the players that make the difference, both in talent level and attitude/psychological make-up.
I know that college basketball is not quite as stat-driven as MLB, but using the category of WAR (Wins Above Replacement), I wonder really what the difference is between an average coach and a great coach in terms of wins. I’m guessing 1 or 2 wins maximum.
It’s much the same as arguments made among Braves fans wanting to get rid of Bobby Cox – at the end of the day, the talent on the field/court and luck determine outcomes, and coaching and strategy contribute some, but relatively very little. It makes a difference, but it isn’t the difference between a 1 seed and 8 seed.
BUT, seeing as how the talent and make-up of the players matters so much, recruiting is very, very important. And insofar as the coaching staff have an impact on recruiting, they are extremely important.
Just my thoughts. I think CKS should stay, but if a decline in recruiting becomes a trend, we might need to think about making a change.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 11:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'm surprised that a loss at Arkansas sparked this debate
But, to be fair, it’s obvious that the frustration has been building for a while. Plus, losing at Arkansas is a hallmark of the Stallings era, and that’s part of the major complaint.
Honestly, I think we’re jumping the gun. Disappointing regular season results are frustrating, but ultimately meaningless. Stallings needs to prove that he’s the guy that can get this team key postseason wins. That ultimately will be the metric that we judge this season based on. We wouldn’t know if this team had really changed until the postseason anyway – although this team’s ability to win on the road has been a stronger indicator of growth that many people seem to think it has been.
The complaints about his urgency on the sideline are interesting as well. We’ve heard it on both sides this season alone. We’ve gone from “look at Stallings ripping into Dai-Jon. Who would want to play for this guy?” to “Look at him smiling at his players after a 0-9 run. Where’s the urgency?!?!” In my opinion, Stallings has corrected some of the problems that hurt this team earlier in the season. He has shored up the team’s rotations, limited the damage that the bench can do while building up DJP, Odom, and Kedren (to an extent), and has been better with timeout management. He’s shown that he can evolve in the course of a season. He’s even addressed one of the team’s biggest weaknesses under him – they’re winning and playing well on the road (Arkansas game excepted, which still wasn’t gruesome). That helped lead this team to its 10-2 run after a weak start, but also two disappointing losses.
I’m frustrated with this team’s lack of growth. We’ve got six great core players who have shown that they enjoy playing with each other. Every one has gotten better over their time at Vanderbilt. No one can argue that Jenkins/Taylor/Lance/Festus/Tinsley (okay…maybe Tinsley) are playing at a much higher level than when they started in Nashville. However, that growth hasn’t really affected the team’s W/L record after ‘09-’10. That’s the most disappointing thing.
So if the players are clearly getting better, why isn’t the team? The coaching seems to be the missing piece, but it’s tough to know for sure. Like it has been pointed out, Stallings brought this team to a new level of play. There’s a significant chance that his replacement would be worse. Personally, I’m not at the tipping point where my frustration makes that risk worthwhile – but I probably will be if we go 0-2 or 1-2 in the postseason this year.
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 2, 2012 11:30 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Two words:
However, that growth hasn’t really affected the team’s W/L record after ‘09-’10
.
Jermaine Beal.
We essentially played the 2011 season minus three starters, as Beal and Ogilvy left, and Walker played the first 10 games or so healthy.
In the games with a 80% Festus, we are clearly bettter than we were last season.
by Jason Fukuda on Feb 2, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
3 first round losses in a row
I think it is apparent that CKS can’t get us past the 1st round of the tournament or deep into the SEC tournament. Do we need another 1st round loss to prove that to you???? I was hoping our regular season was great so we cold get a #2 or #3 seed so we could have a chance of getting past the 1st round.
by RayhackVandy on Feb 2, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Before those upsets, 2 Sweet Sixteen showings
Including one that should have been an Elite Eight showing if Jeff Green could play basketball without cheating.
Yeah, we’ve been bad lately, but we can’t definitively say that Stallings can’t get it done, especially when he’s been successful before. Hell, it seems like the worse seed we have, the better we do.
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 2, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Last year
the 6 through 8 seeds in many regions had much more favorable 1st round match-ups than we did as a 5. I remember being envious and thinking, “What kind of reward is this for a good regular season,” and several national media figures said as much. Hasn’t the 5 – 12 matchup historically produced the most upsets?
Jeff Green…man, that wound is still fresh. I remember that team as an Elite Eight team, because they earned it.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is the issue
CKS would have been called an excellent post-season coach before this group. All of these losses have been with the same personnel. It’s frustrating because of how good we know that they are but it still leaves two possibilities that aren’t the coach. 1)this group simply isn’t clutch, and that can’t be taught. 2) it’s simply a match up game. This team is built to be beat top rated major programs (as the record over the last 3 years versus the Uk’s of the world underscores) but has trouble with 90 minute of hell small ball. I honestly think we would have done serious damage in the last two tourneys if we could have gotten to the more traditional teams. Anyway, just food for thought. The third possibility is of course coaching, but y’all seem to have that one covered.
Selective memory is very useful
in these situations. I stayed back in this debate partly because I know that a) I don’t have the statistical chops to argue with Jason or b) the wit to go at it with TI or KJIV but I can say that alot of those who want Stallings gone seem to focus on a couple of things: 1) His NCAA tournament record the past three years, 2) talent levels, recruiting levels, and consistant play, or 3) grass is greener/the CJF effect.
As to his tournament record, I kept trying to think of a similar situation and I come to Jim Boehiem at Syracuse. Since 03-04 (the operative years for CKS), Boehiem has been to the tourney 6 times, made it past the first day 4 times, made it past the second day 3 times and made it to the sweet sixteen 2 times. CKS has been to the tourney in the same amount of time 5 times, made it past the first day twice, the second day twice and the to the sweet sixteen twice. I am not intimating that somehow CKS has the same career as CJB but I am saying that getting to the tournament is still by and large an impressive feat and getting there and losing in the first round happens to a number of teams (in fact, on average you have around 7 upsets in the first round) and as Joe Torre once said, ‘its a crapshoot after that.’ Even teams like UK, Duke, Kansas and UNC have been regularly upset when not seeded 1 or 2. The difference is that their failures have been masked by years of success. Vanderbilt unfortunately does not have years of success to mask its few slips.
I want to respond to the rest but it will have to wait.
Vandy Fan. Yankee by birth, Southern by choice.
The Twitterz Tag
Remember the 5!
The disturbing thing to me...
…is that while we’ve definitely improved on the road, we’ve fallen at home. I think the Cleveland State and Indiana State losses were particularly shocking (although in retrospect, the Cleveland State loss doesn’t look nearly as bad when you consider both “no Fes” and that they could be a tournament team).
I was in Moraga the night that we barely beat St Mary’s after blowing a lead late. I didn’t think anything of it because St Mary’s is a great program, that little bandbox gym was ROCKING, and it was an early season West Coast road game that was literally meant as a pit stop on the way to Hawaii. But the team is doing the same things now as it was that night, and that’s disheartening – and that team had Dolla Beal and AJ Ogilvy and a healthy Andre Walker. We’ve turned over players, we’ve raised up a super crop of seniors, and the problems are exactly the same as they were in November 2009.
To be clear: I’m not advocating running Stalling off based on what happened in Arkansas. It’s a tough place to play and Mike Anderson does a hell of a job wherever he goes. My concern is that this year is supposed to be the high-water mark of Vanderbilt basketball in the shot clock-3 point era, and we’re 16-6 and unranked approaching the midpoint of the conference season with the tough bit yet to come (two each against Kentucky and Florida plus the kind of games at Ole Miss and Tennessee that have trapped this team in the past). No, this is not the same team that dropped those four games before New Year’s, and yes, the overtime losses against top-15 teams should look a lot better. But I don’t know what the tournament committee will think, and I can tell you right now the poll voters don’t give a damn about our extenuating circumstances.
And I’ll tell you this: if we get into the tournament with everyone healthy and a 5 seed or better and get knocked out in the first round game AGAIN, I will absolutely advocate canceling Kevin Stallings’s return ticket and shipping him his office contents in a box.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Interesting Rating of Programs all time and by decade from ESPN / Sagarin
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
Although I was told how bad UK was in the ’90s (due to probation), they were #1 in that decade…
Also – please note that Vandy was not in the top 40 programs in the 2000’s.
No, you weren't told that.
Look at UK from the late 80’s to early 90’s (before Pitino could get his recruits).
In 1993, when we won the SEC, how many NBA players did UK have on that team? I remember Jamaal Mashburn. Tony Delk was a freshman and not a major contributor. And they were easily the second best team in the league.
Once he got started, we got shut out by them. As is didn’t beat them at all in 10 years.
Were we in the top 40’s in any decade outside of the 60’s?
You should probably better inform yourself.
Well
“But from 1993 to 2002, we didn’t beat UK 1 single time. We had something like 22 consecutive losses to UK.” (1/13/1993 – VU 101-86). A lot of teams did not beat UK for that 10 year period that you are citing by the way… They averaged about 3 SEC losses a season during that period (with’99-’02 being their worst teams – and Stallings being at the helm for Vandy – otherwise, they were losing 2 SEC games per year prior to Stallings in that streak). Yea – Stallings got to them in their two 9-7 SEC seasons and the 8-8 Season! We started beating UK in the 2000s (when they fell to #10 – ie – no final 4 appearances in that decade – the only decade they did not go to a final 4).
I am not sure what to make of the “Kentucky only had 2 NBA players on their roster and they could still finish second in the SEC” statement… We have not had a real NBA player under Stallings (I am not sure Stallings has ever coached an NBA player as a head coach). BTW – UK was a 1 seed and went to the final 4 that year.
By better inform – what do you mean? Did I misstate the fact that you are giving Stallings too much credit for the job he has done? He has beat a good UK team once (last year at home). I never said that he has lowered our level of play (though many would argue that our early 90’s era was more fun to watch), though I do not think he has done much better than the sample in the 12 years before him. Both eras have weak parts, but that is not to say there is not a weak era coming or that a new coach could not bring a real strong era.
I am not asking for a RETURN to glory. I am pointing out that we are not anywhere near a relevant program under Stallings as you suggest we are. That list shows 40 programs that were better during our 2000’s “moving to the next level.” If our overall ranking in the last 72 years is 46, and we are not placed on the top 40 for the 2000’s, then maybe we overachieved (according to our all time history as a program) by falling in the 41-45 range.
I am not sure why you are telling me to “better inform” myself, since all I did was provide a source as a reference to our history of (and current state of) not being relevant nationally in basketball? I only ask that we not be content, and pat a guy on the back for performing the same as the people (on average over 72 years) before him.
I also think you underestimate Vandy’s ability to get someone. I think Corbin and Franklin could set out a pretty strong case that the school can commit to winning if you show you actually care as a coach. This isn’t like trying to hire under Joe B. Wyatt, when the chancellor would just assume drop the athletic programs (and doing things like not letting Ron Mercer into school).
We're A Football School.
How sad is it that we’re more excited for next year’s football than for next year’s basketball season? Didn’t it used to be the other way around? I remember watching the preseason games wondering if we had enough basketballs to go around. Moats and Parker looked GREAT! Then the season started and I wondered why the heck we even recruited Parker, but I am glad to say, he has shut me up even without his lack of scoring. Jamie Graham Jr. Why didn’t CKS keep him around? The Moats thing, though, is confusing the heck out of me. He wanted to redshirt. CKS didn’t want to redshirt him. Then CKS was going to redshirt him. Then both decded to play this year. Now he never gets off the bench. What a waste! I wonder if we would be a better team if Darshawn and Andre stuck around and reshirted Moats and Parker. Don’t get me started on why or why not Kyle Fuller isn’t playing. Would we be even talking like this if Poythress would have signed?
Great post and string
I have enjoyed this post and comments immensely. I think both points of view are valid. That is based on the fact I can’t decide where I stand. I have been frustrated by this team and the coaching. I am concerned that we don’t have a lot in the pipeline. But the program has been elevated. I think losing King Rice hurt our recruiting more than we outsiders know. I also question whether CKS is a little burned out. That is the fun of speculation. I will root hard for them and, at least for now, trust VCDW to make the right call on whether to retain CKS. His decisions seems pretty strong to me.
by Smoke n Mirrors on Feb 2, 2012 1:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think this has been the best thread in AoG
Or at least during my time here. The number and quality of comments has been extraordinary. Its the kind of thread that makes internet boards fun and fullfilling. Not the general morass of personal attacks and trolls.
Really great stuff and I’m glad we (AoG) is having this lengthy discussion.
I can support this.
The conversation here has been great. Really good, insightful discussion, and no one’s been called a shithead or homer or anything!
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 2, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
I’ve actually learned a ton about the recent history of the program and the Stallings era, having only started following the team in 2005.
Witty, intelligent, informative (my posts aside), restrained – I think this blog represents the school pretty damn well.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you.
It wouldn’t be possible without the community that everyone here has created.
by Christian D'Andrea on Feb 2, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
The posts have been great and insightful especially pre-Stallings as I was not aware of that history. My emotions are running high because I was expecting a lot this years so apologize if I did offend anyone with my strong feelings towards CKS. All Vanderbilt fans have been put through a tremendous amount with football and basketball over the years so it would be nice to see a great outcome for the rest of the year!
At this point I would let VCDW arrange my marriage for me if I weren't already hitched
I would even stand up in the tracksuit instead of a tux.
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
by VandyImport on Feb 2, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, I think he has done more than enough to earn our trust.
I’m pretty sure that alumni marriage arrangement falls under his job description as Vice Chancellor, since apparently several other seemingly disparate responsibilities do as well.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I think people need to get a little bit of a grip
By all statistical measures, we are better than last season, DESPITE not having Festus for the first 10 games. If we had a healthy Festus the entire season, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, in my opinion. We’d probably have still lost to MSt and Ark, and maybe one other, but would fans still be unhappy with 19-3?
Are people expecting us to run through the SEC slate? It’s tough to win on the road in conference. Arkansas has been notoriously successful at home.
We have six losses this season. Three have come in overtime. We essentially have two losses since Festus got healthy, one in OT. Both of those have come in games where the other team got very hot from outside. As we all know, especially since Vanderbilt hung its hat on getting wins this way, the three point line is the great equalizer in basketball.
I think people need to kind of wipe the first ten games out of their mind. If we can beat Florida and Kentucky, the NCAA selection committee will discount those losses.
I also think people need to look back to 2004 and 2007. Those teams obviously couldn’t touch this team in terms of talent, they came on strong as the season wore on, which is something that our recent teams haven’t done. They had strong senior leadership. They also struggled early in the season. But those early struggles paid off when it counted.
I have complete faith that the same thing will happen this season. This weekend is huge, and I think we have a great shot at upsetting the Gators in Gainesville. Then it certainly looks like we’ve got a shot to upset a #1 ranked UK in Memorial.
We are ranked 24th in the RPI, with the 8th best SOS. Kentucky’s SOS is 70.
Let’s take some deep breaths. The season is not over. There are always setbacks along the way. We still have the opportunity to do something special. Let’s get behind the team and let the chips fall how they may. There will be plenty of time to judge the state of the program after the last game’s been played.
Anchor of Gold
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by KingJamesIV on Feb 2, 2012 4:50 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I want to also say
that I value everyone’s opinion. I think everyone is entitled to feel angry or whatever. I don’t think anyone has stepped over the line and that is a credit to all of you. This kind of stuff is very healthy.
Honestly, I have a really good feeling about how the team will respond to the loss at Arkansas. A win at Florida would be a big boost. We have our work cut out for us.
Anchor of Gold
Facebook: AOG
Follow @AnchorOfGold
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Saturday is a HUGE opportunity
I don’t expect to win in Gainesville just as a matter of course, but I think our chances this year are better than they’ve been in ages. A win there would be enormous and build a LOT of momentum for next week (not to look past LSU, but the Blue Mist has equalled Judgement Day since 1947).
Thanks everyone for the insight. I’d a lot rather have this discussion now than in the wake of whatever happens in March, because if you think our perspective might be skewed NOW, just wait until we’re cutting down nets or packing our bags unexpectedly… =)
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Hopefully South Carolina will play them tough tonight, although I doubt it will be close. I think we have a good chance, however being beaten twice by teams with hot 3-point shooting makes me quite nervous. I hope we figure that key part of defense out this week.
As for the loss at Arkansas, both Mississippi State and Michigan lost there, but neither team played them as closely as we did. One could argue that both teams are better than us, as well.
It is difficult to have your team be good and at the same time so close to being much more. I yell at the TV and lose sleep, but I’m glad we have something there to believe in (without just being a homer). I still think things will come together.
This thread is now long enough that it crashed my SB Nation iPad app.
I think it is completely reasonable to judge this team based on when Festus returned more-or-less full-time. Since then, like you said, we’ve lost 2 games and I don’t really see any reason for dissapointment since Festus has returned.
Hey, we went on the road and crushed Alabama. That was awesome. We annihalited UT. That was fantastic. MSU lost their minds from 3 in the 2nd half and we still almost won. We’ve got good reason to consider the early losses an abberation, because Festus is that big of factor in this team’s success. We beat Louisville and Xavier with him on the court, no doubt about it – probably Cleveland State too, but I don’t know, no one seemed to show up for that game.
Point it, the team as currently constituted is pretty damn good by any measure and completely capable of beating UF this weekend and UK at least once. I can’t wait.
by Pope Vanderbilt on Feb 2, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
I really really REALLY want Florida
Beating UK in Nashville has actually become almost routine since 2005, it seems like, or at least common enough that I don’t go into the home game assuming we’re going to get clowned. But Florida has turned into our all-purpose nemesis – the hump we couldn’t get over in baseball, the what-could-have-been in football, and a team we just can’t cope with in hoops. I want those Gators skinned and tanned and turned into boots to prop on the rail at the Iguana pounding margaritas and celebrating a win.
…what? CLOSED? Son of a…
"Well, if that ain't a show, I'll kiss your ass." - Gov. Jim Folsom Sr. (D-AL), 1948-52
Late to the commentary party
I can’t decide on how I feel about CKS this season, however, I do know that I could not dream of players that I’d rather watch play ball, and I’m proud to call them Commodores. I think it is because I know how impressive they are individually as players and as men that I have such high expectations. I know they are trying to put together something special. I’m going to hold off on my judgement of CKS until after this team has the chance to prove what they can do. I think we might still have a fun ride ahead of us. Go ’Dores!
by doredarling on Feb 2, 2012 10:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Replacement?
I dont think CKS should get the hook but who are we going to get? With the shape of next years recruiting class we cant reload getting a no name coach. We are going to have to get a name that people will see and draw attention to the program! Lets not forget we are competing against coaches like Calipari and Billy Donavon who has won 2 titles. I supports CKS but lets not let a few bad games cause us to have mutiny. If the time does come to make a move lets make sure we do it right.
Here’s the short list in no order:
1.Mark Few 315–83 (.791)- Is becoming a big name and has put Gonzaga on the map. Has name recogntion.
2.Josh Pastner 15-6 (6-1)- Unfortunatley he is a Calipari disciple but he can recruit talent.
3.Frank Martin- 106-44 (.707) In his first 4 seasons at K-State have all been 20 win seasons. Would be somewhat of a parallel move but with the make up the BIG 12 constantly changing may be willing to listen to offers.
4.Steve Fisher- Has won a National Title at Michigan(runner up in back to back seasons) and has taken SDSU to the tourny the past 2 seasons at a small school. Age could be an issue since he is 66.
Sign of the Apocolapse:
1.Bruce Pearl- I cant believe I’m throwing this out there but hear me out. He put UT basketball on the map. If we do keep CKS and struggle for the next 2 seasons if I’m correct his show clause will be up and allowed to coach. It will be a move similar to Patino going to Louisville. Would cause a huge stir.
I think Pastner or Scott Drew are your best targets
But it would take some work and some “lettuce” to convince them that Vanderbilt isn’t a lateral move. Pastner can recruit but he’s struggled to coach his team up at Memphis. I think Scott Drew is probably the best bet.
The problem with quotations on the internet is, you don't know whether they're accurate. - Abraham Lincoln
by Anything but Gatorade on Feb 3, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
No. Anyone but Scott Drew
He has a terrible reputation among coaches. Not a classy guy at all. He does recruit really well. His teams also underperform, but not as bad as Pastner’s teams underperform. Performance aside, I would be embarrassed to have that man as our coach.
Mark Few isn’t going anywhere. I doubt the administration would want Steve Fisher given his proximity to NCAA violations. I also doubt the administration would want a Calipari disciple given his propensity to recruit those who use the team as a one year intro to the NBA and our institution’s desire to recruit players who will stay 4 years and get an education.
Bruce Pearl? If the sky is falling…maybe we can get Pitino when he leaves UL in a couple years…
Agree on Mark Few
Do you really want a coach to recruit players who will stay four years and get an education? I totally understand that’s the University’s goal, as it should be. However, it’s no secret that the best players, I’m talking Top 50, aren’t interested in getting an education; they’re interested in the NBA. Okay, that’s a huge generalization, but I think it’s true for quite the majority. Duke seems to be the only school that tends to refute this point, and it’s no coincidence that their roster is chock-full of palefaces.
The problem with quotations on the internet is, you don't know whether they're accurate. - Abraham Lincoln
by Anything but Gatorade on Feb 3, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think it is true for the majority of top 50 players—they only want to get to the NBA as quickly as possible. The question becomes how many such players would we like? I would love for our basketball program to be a yearly threat to make it to the final four, but as an alumnus I don’t want to see our athletic program take on the model of Kentucky. There are many academically qualified non-athletes who are not accepted to Vanderbilt, and as an alumnus I would find it discouraging (and contrary to whatever mission the university has) for us to routinely accept (and give scholarship money to) athletes that have absolutely zero plans of graduating, or even attempting to make any academic gains or recognize the privilege of attending Vanderbilt, and to do so in the name of winning. It is my inference that Stallings and the administration feel the same way and thus Stallings must recruit under certain academic restrictions. Additionally, if you were a top 50 athlete who was planning on jumping to the NBA after one or two years, would you choose an academically rigorous school like Vandy or Duke, or would you go someplace where the courseload might not be so tough? We really are playing the recruiting game with quite a handicap.
Late to the Party
Hi there! Excuse me for being fashionably late to the…what’s that? The party’s already over? But I see some open sweaty beers over there that have barely been touched!
Okay, here’s my take on Stallings, and keep in mind that I’m still a relative outsider.:
One: He has definitely underachieved this year in the context of this team’s potential. However, I think the real drawback of this team as the lack of an athletic point guard who can create his own shot when necessary. I like Tinsley, but his ball handling ability and panic in traps just sink me every time. Get it? Boat joke!
Two: People are panicking because next year the Dores basically don’t have anyone with much experience that can play. That’s justified.
Three: 3 horrible showings in the NCAAT. But at least the Dores made it; remember that trip to the CBI or ABC or whatever that godawful thing was a few years ago? That’s not even in the discussion right now is it?
Four: Consider the alternative. What is it, really? Who ya gonna get? Do you really think Vandy could poach Creighton’s coach, or Murray State’s, or, I don’t know, Steve Fischer from SDSU? In terms of Murray, I’m not sure you all appreciate the Mariana Trench-sized gap between the standards for MSU and Vandy, but I bet Steve Prohm does, and he’d probably rather be a big fish in a small pond for a little while longer. When Kentucky fired Billy Gillispie, there really was only one coach who could make a profound and immediate difference in the trajectory of the program, and John Calipari was the obvious choice, warts and all. But is there a John Calipari out there for Vanderbilt? I’m not sure there is.
Five: No one’s said this yet, but Stallings has been around for a while now. Ten years in college basketball coaching at one school is an eternity in real-person years. Coach K, Jim Boeheim, and Jim Calhoun are exceptions, not the rule.
I have a lot of confidence in David Williams (now) and I agree that he’ll make the best call. Basketball has, historically, been Vanderbilt’s best athletic program for quite a while now, and it’s been one thing that Vandy fans could hang their hat on – the team is usually dangerous. But Stallings has actually established a record of fairly consistent success in terms of regular season records. His NCAAT record isn’t spectacular, but at least he’s getting there on a regular basis. I think he hates the SECT, but so does everyone except for Kentucky. The Class of 2013 should be the measuring stick, I think. Get through a hard year next year and hope for the new kids, whoever those are, to revitalize the program. If there’s no promise there, though, it might be time to move on after that.
Great party guys, and don’t mind that I’ve backed up a truck and am loading that half keg into it.
The problem with quotations on the internet is, you don't know whether they're accurate. - Abraham Lincoln
by Anything but Gatorade on Feb 3, 2012 9:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
He hates the SECT
This is why we lose in the first round because we lose ALL momentum going into the tournament. Look at Uconn last year, you get hot in the conference championship, you win games in the tourney, bottom line. Stallings should motivate and want to win every game!
by RayhackVandy on Feb 3, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think Jason and our two hosts underrate the potential for improvement
I do understand the argument that Jason has made again and again here. By any historical standard, Vandy basketball is in a golden age. During the VBK years, which I remember well, we used to wonder if we’d make the NIT rather than what seed we’d get in the NCAAs. A bad coaching change could easily bring us back to that.
Here are two reasons that I haven’t much seen addressed on this thread for why should make the move anyway.
First, I think Stallings has burned out. I certainly cannot prove this in any quantifiable way but I think we’re now coasting on the last embers of an younger, better Stallings and our years of making the tournament nearly every year will end this year, with five out of six. Next year we will be wondering if we’ll make the NIT.
I don’t claim he’s a terrible coach or that he’ll never be successful again. A couple of years as an analyst and a fresh job — or maybe just the fresh job — may well make a new man out of him and give him the sort of success that will have us wishing we’d kept him. But I don’t think he’d have had that success here.
Second, I do not agree with those folks who say that Vandy isn’t a good enough job to land and retain a truly world class coach. Aside from a few bball royalty schools — UNC, Kentucky, Kansas and maybe UCLA — I think all big division schools are more or less even. Schools like Syracuse and UConn that are great every year for decades succeed not because of size or fan base but because they were smart enough to sign someone world class and keep him there.
Basketball powerhouses that loose great coaches go to basketball also rans fast. Most of you guys are not old enough to remember how good teams like Arizona and Seton Hall and Georgetown were every single year. Even UCLA has sucked consistently the instant they lost a first rate coach and replaced him with a second-rate one.
I think it’s at least worth a shot. Being almost good actually is worse than being really bad. Right now, the team gives me more misery than pleasure. During the VBK years, I just averted my eyes and thought nothing about them.
There’s nothing about the program that makes a powerhouse. Had Jim Boeheim come to Vandy all those years ago, then all those tourney wins would be ours. (That’s why I don’t list Duke among the royalty. Duke has no advantage over anyone, except the fact that it has been helmed for three decades by the best coach in college history.)
But what about the private school lack of fan base and high academic standards? The first hurts us, but not as much as you think. Only the biggest public schools have fan bases. Texas does. But if you really think anyone in Connecticut cares about UConn, you’re kidding yourself.
As for the academic standards, I think that helps put us just slightly above (not slightly below) nearly all the other schools in this largely flat college universe that I have mentioned. There are hundreds of big schools with low academic standards but only two or three places to go for bright kids who are not so unbelievably good that they’re shoo-ins for the NBA. It’s a smaller pool of kids, to be sure, but it’s a much much smaller pool of schools. Most of them won’t have Duke as an option, which brings it down to us or Stanford, really. Northwestern has never had a basketball program. Wake Forest is a far worse school and so small that you really need to want a small school (and yet, to get back to my earlier point, it was a perennial power when it had a great coach). What else is there? Emory? Rice?
The notion that some have peddled above that NC State is an inherently better position strikes me as absurd. What can you possibly say to make a kid want to come to NC State?
Of course getting and keeping a world class coach isn’t easy. But if the school employs the best talent spotters AND is willing to fire people who aren’t cutting it after two years on the job rather than keeping them around for five, we’ll eventually get our Jim Calhoun or Lute Olsen.
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