Why can Butler make the final game and Vanderbilt can't?
I'm still learning my way around here so I'm not sure what the most appropriate way to cross post stuff I write on VandySports is. Please bear with me.
So, you can read the antecedent discussion here if you wish. force10jc gives voice to something a lot of us are thinking about this week: "I see Butler playing for a National Championship as a 5-seed and can't help but ask why not us as a 4-seed." Here's my detailed discussion -- NOT an answer to the question, but rather a discussion of the method I'd use to answer the question -- because at the end of the day, I think it's largely an overreaction to a small sample of data. (Just because I'm calling it an overreaction doesn't mean I don't wonder this too!)
I think there's some element of luck and some element of merit. However, to keep us focused on the latter, here's a far more interesting question to me: How is that Butler is the 12th most efficient team in the land and Vanderbilt has topped out at 23rd (2004) or more recently 35th (2007, 2010)?
If you're consistently in the top 12 in efficiency over a decade, you're much more likely to make a FF than if you're consistently between 20th and 30th.
So then, the primary way Butler is so efficient is absolutely awesome defense. In the broad category of defense, they do all the following well (top third of D-I) but in descending order of rank: rebound defensively (14th), make the other team miss shots, cause turnovers, avoid fouling. They're much shorter than Vanderbilt but much better at DReb so I'd start there.
I get that [we're] looking for bigger-picture trends, and I love big-picture trends, but sometimes I fool myself into imposing a pattern without considering all the facts. So I'd keep drilling down like this, getting to the fine-grained facts and then building back up to see if the big picture is supported by them. To wit: Does VU typically rebound defensively less well than our height would suggest? 2009 was an exception, but in 2007, 08, and 10 it's a marked weakness. That's not a ton of data but enough to strongly suggest it's a perennial problem.
Why didn't we D-rebound well in 2010? Suppose it's because we had a somewhat unmotivated starting center and lacked a big-man coach. Does VU usually recruit apathetic big guys? I'd suggest not, so that's not a pattern, but I'm open to being convinced. Has VU had a big-man coach in the past? No, so that might be a pattern.
Etc. etc. as long as you want to go -- that's how I would approach it. I'd deal with efficiency and its components rather than Final Fours and their components because it's hard to measure everything that goes into a Final Four, including dumb luck, but it's relatively easier to measure the components that explain most of what makes a team efficient.
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Defensive rebounding going back a few years
I’m going to keep posting stuff here in comments related to this post as I find it.
It’s too bad we don’t have height stats back before 2007, but at least we have offensive and defensive rebounding % and national rank back to 2004 on Pomeroy’s site. From there it’s pretty clear we were decent on the D boards in ’04 and in ’05, but we fell off the map in 2006.
What happened that could explain this? We lost Corey Smith who was a pretty decent part of that. The following year we lost Jeff Jackson and King Rice came in. I glanced at Furman’s stats to see if I could find any relationship in their rebounding stats around that time, but nothing really stood out to me. It could just be statistical noise that varies a bit with each new squad of players, but it’s pretty clear to me that allowing offensive boards has been a huge problem starting in 2006.
I would definitely agree Philip
Your posts are always very well researched and I enjoy reading them on VandySports.
From a non-statistical, mere observation perspective, I would definitely agree that D-Rebounding was the “elephant in the room” that Vandy fans liked to ignore in favor of Offensive Efficiency and Free Throw shooting. In focusing on this present group of Vanderbilt players, i.e. the ones from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010, I wonder how much of our rebounding woes have to do with a lack of experience.
It seems to me to be very easy to blame Ogilvy for not being a rebounding gobbler underneath, but I wonder how much of it can be attributed to only him. If two opposing players are crashing the boards, Ogilvy can only pick one of them up on a box out. It seems to me that perhaps a loss of focus on fundamentals and a greater reliance on height lead to athletic teams simply gaining better position for a board. This may have made Ogilvy seem lazy down low when in fact he was simply taken out of the play (though there were times where he didn’t seem to hit the boards hard). I just wonder if perhaps, given the fact that most of our guys are sophomores, there will be a jump in production on our defensive rebounding by virtue of greater experience and more offseason focus on that particular area.
Good points
Not only are the rest of our bigs sophomores, but Festus hadn’t even played hoops until a few years ago. So you’re definitely right about inexperience.
I’ve probably fallen into blaming AJ a bit just because his potential is so obvious and his size advantage so substantial. But more than that, I’m worried at the trend over the past 5 seasons. We need some sort of big-man coach. I can’t recall, did Jeff Jackson tend in that direction when he was here?
Thanks for your kind words.

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